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NJT rail system just "cobbled together" |
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Posted by WhiteBus on Mon Sep 15 16:17:27 2014 A recent thread has discussed the Montclair Connection. But the folks (who were numerous) at Arlington Stn were left out in the cold even tho it was September when this change took place. But this change to me just represents how much of the current NJT rail system is just "cobbled together" with remnants of trunk routes. For example on the original Boonton Line in DL&W days the trains just about flew, then the line was combined with the much slower Greenwood Lake Line, then combined again with the Montclair Branch. Another example is the "Aldene Plan". Previously the CNJ trains had a fast direct run to Jersey City and then Lower Manhattan (on the ferry for sure). Same for the North Jersey Coast trains. The landscape is very different today, but I think that many of the route changes and abandonments of the 1960s especially were made in anticipation of either complete abandonment or of some limited "rush hour only" service. Do I have a valid point here? |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by andy on Mon Sep 15 22:31:21 2014, in response to NJT rail system just "cobbled together", posted by WhiteBus on Mon Sep 15 16:17:27 2014. No. New Jersey's commuter rails were overbuilt in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Many lines competed with each other, such as the CNJ and PRR between Elizabeth and NYC. The Hudson River motor vehicle crossings allowed buses to compete with the old rail lines.By 1960 the rail lines were in bad shape and the idea was to eliminate competition so that the strongest and most important routes would survive using public subsidies (eventually that became full public control). So today's system is not so much cobbled together but a more efficient network with complimentary instead of competing lines. Best example is the Kearny Connection, which allowed Lackawanna trains to access the old PRR high line for a direct run to Penn Station. That's my opinion in a nutshell. Much more could be written. |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 15 22:43:16 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by andy on Mon Sep 15 22:31:21 2014. That's got little to nothing to do with the situation in regards to Arlington station in Kearny NJ. NJT abandoned that when the Montclair Connection opened, leaving passengers without a rail option.And what's wrong with competing rail lines? The way things supposedly "complement" each other (they do not), passengers are left with fewer options and less service. |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Sep 16 08:06:07 2014, in response to NJT rail system just "cobbled together", posted by WhiteBus on Mon Sep 15 16:17:27 2014. If the private rails were all dying, as it seems they were, then what is wrong with "cobbling together" a working system from the remnants of the several competing systems? It seems better than either (1) letting rail service die out completely, or (2) building an all-new public system at prohibitive expense. |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 16 09:04:10 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Sep 16 08:06:07 2014. They weren't dying—they were being killed by government "competition". |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Sep 16 11:15:55 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 15 22:43:16 2014. There is nothing wrong with competition until you get overcapacity. At that time, there was no one fit enough to survive, so they all had to hang together. |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by WhiteBus on Tue Sep 16 12:02:57 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by JAzumah on Tue Sep 16 11:15:55 2014. Thank you to everyone who responded. The responses were thoughtful and intelligent. What motivated my original post was my feeling that as early as the 1950s there was the expectation that rr commuting in NJ would continue its secular decline. Thru the 1950s and 1960s we saw major service eliminations, ie, PRR Exchange Place, NYC West Shore, then the EL route eliminations and consolidations, and the CNJ Aldene Plan. I think that much of these changes were in anticipation of further closures and cutbacks so that there would be "rush hour only" service or even no service. But then the landscape changed for many reasons which I won't address right now. NJT rail does an adequate job under the circumstances, but I am just pessimistic that we will see any improvement in the near or long term for rail service, other than replacement of equipment. As a major example, NY Penn Stn is a weak link in the entire system. It is an over-crowded hovel, but I do not see any chance for improvement in either the near or long term especially given the very long lead times today for major projects. |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Sep 16 18:02:04 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by WhiteBus on Tue Sep 16 12:02:57 2014. It [NY Penn Station] is an over-crowded hovel, but I do not see any chance for improvement in either the near or long term especially given the very long lead times today for major projects.In the long term? There's Amtrak's Gateway project which would add 2 tunnels under the Hudson. Maybe even throw in a few extra tracks for NJT, but I think NJ has to chip in for that. |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Sep 16 18:03:43 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 16 09:04:10 2014. That still counts as dying though. And people liked their cars with cheap gas and aircraft that can cross the country in less than a day more than trains. |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by Lord Vader on Thu Sep 18 02:23:29 2014, in response to NJT rail system just "cobbled together", posted by WhiteBus on Mon Sep 15 16:17:27 2014. You also have to realize one of the reasons for NJT abandoning the lower Boonton Line is WR Draw. They did not want the costs of rebuilding or replacing that bridge. Hence the Montclair Connection keeps the trains moving and sadly the stations from Benson St to Arlington had to be sacrificed.Vader |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by fdtutf on Thu Sep 18 14:52:46 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 16 09:04:10 2014. What government "competition" was killing New Jersey rail lines in the 1960s, especially with regard to passenger service? |
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Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'' |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 18 15:22:26 2014, in response to Re: NJT rail system just ''cobbled together'', posted by fdtutf on Thu Sep 18 14:52:46 2014. Infrastructure-wise, the government-funded highways; railroads still own their own infrastructure, where fully private. This was going on since the early 20th century.But that only was up to 1966 in New Jersey, when they created the Department of Transportation and started taking over the commuter rails. The NJDOT finished the "work" of cutting down the five waterfront passenger terminals down to a single one (Hoboken) and set the stage for today's "cobbled-together" network with only token re-expansions (such as Hackettstown) |
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