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| (1312516) | |
WMATA |
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Posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 10:59:29 2014 What's with WMATA train operators? First the train accelerates then slows down, the accelerates again, causing discomfort for riders. Second, why the hard braking? WMATA operators need to know how to operate the trains correctly and keep in mind passenger safety and comfort. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 13 11:38:01 2014, in response to WMATA, posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 10:59:29 2014. You may wish to contact WMATA directly about your concerns. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by The Silence on Sat Sep 13 12:58:44 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 13 11:38:01 2014. yea, I don't remember any of us signing up as WMATA's help line. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Sep 13 14:51:16 2014, in response to WMATA, posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 10:59:29 2014. Either the trains are operating ATO (although I don't think that's the case at the present time), or the cab signal system is requiring the T/O to take certain actions which may seem uncomfortable. Since the cars were designed for ATO, it's highly possible that they don't operate as smoothly in manual mode causing the erratic operation. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 13 14:56:20 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 13 14:51:16 2014. I recently heard that ever since the fatal collision on the Red Line some time ago, they are still operating manually. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by zuckie13 on Sat Sep 13 15:38:58 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 13 14:56:20 2014. Yeah, still operating manually I believe. Thought they were doing some testing of the upgrading systems earlier this year. I don't know if that means any part has gone automatic again, but not likely. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Sep 13 17:03:32 2014, in response to WMATA, posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 10:59:29 2014. What's with WMATA train operators? First the train accelerates then slows down, the accelerates again, causing discomfort for riders. Second, why the hard braking? WMATA operators need to know how to operate the trains correctly and keep in mind passenger safety and comfort.Train operators operating in manual mode respond less smoothly to lose of speed commands then does the train board automatic train control system. When operating in manual mode operators are required to move the controller handle from one of the 5 power position to brake 3 or greater within 5 seconds of loss of speed commands or the train will automatically apply emergency breaking. When the speed commands are reacquired the train operator can move the controller handle back to a power position. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1312626) | |
Re: WMATA |
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Posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 21:03:15 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 13 14:51:16 2014. Thanks Randyo. Excellent answer as always. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 21:05:38 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Sep 13 17:03:32 2014. Thanks John. do you think WMATA will ever operate in ATO again? |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Sep 13 23:26:39 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 21:05:38 2014. Thanks John. do you think WMATA will ever operate in ATO again?Yes. Multiple contracts have been awarded to upgrade the first generation train control hardware to the present generation of hardware. It is my understanding that the Red line could return to automatic operation tomorrow as all of the first generation hardware on that line has been upgraded. Me thinks WMATA is holding off on doing a phased return to automatic operation because they don't want to alienate the folks riding the lines that will be done last. Based on the sequence of the contracts that have been advertized it looks like the upgrades are being done pretty close to the same order the lines originally built, oldest first. The southern Green line and the Blue line east of Addison Road will not need to be upgraded as those segment use hardware almost identical the new stuff that is replacing the old. The upgrades are going beyond what caused the Fort Totten wreck of 06 22 2009. They are replacing the existing relay logic with microprocessor based hardware that emulated relay logic. They are also upgrading selected high frequency track circuits to power frequency track circuits to eliminate the occurrences of loss of detection that was discovered during the testing and acceptance of the train control hardware on the Silver line. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Sep 14 12:44:13 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Sep 13 23:26:39 2014. Is there really a safety problem here? Loss of train detection is only barely mitigated by manual operation. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Sep 14 18:53:25 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Sep 14 12:44:13 2014. Is there really a safety problem here? Loss of train detection is only barely mitigated by manual operation.In my opinion no. However I am not in a position for that opinion to have any effect. The suits in the JGB building are airing on the side of caution. Never mind the fact that said caution is only backed up by propaganda emanating from the same suits. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 09:53:14 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Sep 14 12:44:13 2014. Is there really a safety problem here?Yes. Loss of train detection is only barely mitigated by manual operation. I think your point is not that there's not a safety problem (with loss of train detection), but that manual operation doesn't really do much to mitigate the safety problem. I fully agree, and in fact manual operation was a contributing factor in the 2009 crash, and manual operation could not have prevented that crash. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 09:54:23 2014, in response to WMATA, posted by 5119 on Sat Sep 13 10:59:29 2014. Since they are still operating manually, they often stop short of the 8-car mark [1] and have to adjust, which is very annoying.Then there's also the annoying 5-second wait before opening the doors that WMATA instituted a couple of years ago. The stupidity is thick on the ground, IMO. [1] All trains are now required to stop at the 8-car mark regardless of train length. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Sep 15 10:09:41 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 09:54:23 2014. That would suck for stations with entrances at the other end of the platform (I have never been on Metro, so I know next to nothing about station layouts), and maybe weekend service with 4-car trains (does WMATA ever run 2-car trains?) |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 11:03:37 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Sep 15 10:09:41 2014. Yep, it sucks for stations with entrances at both ends, of which there are a good many. There are also stations with only one entrance at one end, and then it sucks for trains going in the direction away from that entrance.I haven't seen WMATA run 4-car trains since I moved to DC for the second time in 2011. (Weekend frequencies are often reduced, requiring 6- or 8-car trains to handle the crowds at the longer headways.) And I haven't seen 2-car trains on WMATA since a short-lived late-evening experiment when I lived here in the early 1990s. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 11:15:43 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Sep 15 10:09:41 2014. 4 car trains haven't run on the weekends in years. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 11:16:16 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 09:54:23 2014. Then there's also the annoying 5-second wait before opening the doors that WMATA instituted a couple of years ago.The "journalists" and bloggers who "cover" Metro really ought to bring attention to this issue, everyone seems to have forgotten about it. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Sep 15 11:55:08 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 11:15:43 2014. It would be a dispatching headachecanyway since they want the 1000's buried in the middle. Couldn't run them. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 12:04:09 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 11:16:16 2014. IAWTP. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 12:56:05 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Sep 15 11:55:08 2014. There are enough other cars that it could be done, but you're right, it would make a logistical nightmare in the yards Friday night and Sunday night.The 1000s in the middle is a good PR stunt, I'm not sure it justifies the downsides of doing it for 5+ years now. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Sep 15 13:10:11 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 12:56:05 2014. Aren't the 1000s going away once enough 7000s are in service? |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 13:26:12 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon Sep 15 13:10:11 2014. Yes, but the first cars won't be online until later this year at the earliest, and there are nearly 300 1000 Series cars to replace. It is going to take some time. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 13:40:17 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Sep 15 13:26:12 2014. The NTSB has also said that "bellying" the 1000-series cars, as WMATA calls it, offers no actual safety benefit.(Source: the NTSB's accident report (PDF), page 123, item 38: "does not provide appreciable crashworthiness benefits.") |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Sep 16 08:44:08 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 09:54:23 2014. Then there's also the annoying 5-second wait before opening the doors that WMATA instituted a couple of years ago.The train operators position is on the right. The majority of the stations have island platforms on the left. The train operator births the train at the platform, get up from the seat on the right, goes to the left side, opens the window to make sure the train is in fact birthed at the platform, pushes the door open button. That was instituted to prevent the automatic opening of doors off the platform.  John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Sep 16 11:56:16 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Sep 16 08:44:08 2014. Let's not forget that the automated safety system that would prevent that from happening has been offline for nearly 6 years now. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Tue Sep 16 17:12:42 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Sep 16 08:44:08 2014. The 5-second wait, AIUI, is in addition to any time it takes the operator to cross the cab. (That time, while annoying in its own right, is typically much less than 5 seconds.) |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Tue Sep 16 17:12:57 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Sep 16 11:56:16 2014. +1 |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Sep 16 17:29:19 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 12:04:09 2014. Most interesting thread. I learned lot from this,thanks, everybody. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Tue Sep 16 17:53:39 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Sep 16 08:44:08 2014. Per this article, manual opening was instituted after incidents in which doors opened automatically on the wrong side.The five-second delay I'm referring to, which is the main subject of the linked article, was instituted much later (almost exactly two years ago, it appears). |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Tue Sep 16 17:57:19 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Tue Sep 16 17:53:39 2014. From that linked article, here is what's dumb about the system in this regard:On Metro, the trains have a similar platform detection system. But it's only operable when the doors are in automatic mode. When the doors are in manual, the train's computer systems do not require an override, and the operator can open the doors whenever the train is stationary (whether it's in a station or not). It's idiotic that the systems that ensure the train is properly berthed are cut out when the train's doors are operated manually. Obviously there needs to be some kind of override, as described earlier in the article, but verifying that the train is correctly berthed at the platform before the doors can be opened in the usual way solves the problem and is actually effective, unlike making operators wait five seconds, which really accomplishes nothing. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Sep 16 22:54:06 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Tue Sep 16 17:53:39 2014. Per this article, manual opening was instituted after incidents in which doors opened automatically on the wrong side.Which is the exactly the same thing. Opening on the wrong side is opening off the platform. As Oren and the Greater Greater Washington blog post the points out, the subsystem that prevents doors from opening off the platform has been disabled placing the total responsibly of assuring that trains are properly birthed at platform before opening the doors on the train operator. This procedure was instituted to give train operators the opportunity to not to have to pee in a cup and or be subject to disciplinary action that was not their fault. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Sep 17 12:07:59 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Tue Sep 16 22:54:06 2014. Which is the exactly the same thing. Opening on the wrong side is opening off the platform.You missed my point: Manual door opening was instituted several years ago after there were incidents with doors being opened wrong-side by the automatic door-opening system. The five-second delay has basically nothing to do with this; as the GGW post makes clear, it was instituted two years ago in misguided response to errors where operators opened doors when they were not properly berthed, with some doors off the platform. Those are actually two separate problems (and take it from me; I've made both mistakes in revenue service myself). This procedure was instituted to give train operators the opportunity to not to have to pee in a cup and or be subject to disciplinary action that was not their fault. Are you telling me WMATA forced operators to pee in a cup for errors made by the automated system?!?!? |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Thu Sep 18 08:20:09 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Wed Sep 17 12:07:59 2014. Are you telling me WMATA forced operators to pee in a cup for errors made by the automated system?!?!?Yes. There have been multiple reports of incidences where train operators have faced disciplinary action because of safety subsystem malfunctions. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Thu Sep 18 15:19:47 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Thu Sep 18 08:20:09 2014. I wish I could claim surprise, but I can't. :-( That's ridiculous. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 16:06:39 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by fdtutf on Mon Sep 15 11:03:37 2014. I remember that.. two car trains didn't make sense Then..wouldn't now.Last one I rode was packed to the gills. |
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Re: WMATA |
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Posted by fdtutf on Fri Sep 19 11:46:13 2014, in response to Re: WMATA, posted by Edwards! on Thu Sep 18 16:06:39 2014. Years ago when they were running two-car sets on the late weekday evenings, I stayed at work once until 10:00 (worked in Rosslyn, lived in Dupont Circle). When an inbound two-car train arrived at Rosslyn, it was so packed that I couldn't even get a seat. I was pretty pissed. |
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