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| Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? (1309699) | |
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Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014  I copied this data from the MTA we |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cost 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:39:09 2014, in response to Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014. I repackaged the data from here. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 27 13:20:00 2014, in response to Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014. It's a bigger railroad. Every train loses money. So the more trains you have the more money you lose. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Aug 27 13:25:35 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 27 13:20:00 2014. It's a bigger railroad.But the figures heypaul shows don't indicate that. They show the two railroads to be very similar in size. Nothing explains why LIRR would have a 28% bigger budget. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 27 13:58:47 2014, in response to Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014. Anyone here, besides me, notice that just about everything is more expensive in Long Island: overpaid cops, union orkers, high taxes, rising gang and crime rates. That comes from my cousins who used to live there, so don't jump down my throat! No wonder most of my relatives have left Nassau and Suffolk Counties. It used to be a nice place to grow up and raise your own families, but they can't afford to retire and remain there. Who the F**k in their right mind would pay $150,000 for one Suffolk County cop??? |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 27 13:59:39 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by AlM on Wed Aug 27 13:25:35 2014. MN has fewer branches than LIRR. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 27 14:08:33 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by AlM on Wed Aug 27 13:25:35 2014. The 11 lines for the LIRR vs. 6 (5 active) for Metro-North? The numbers of passengers and railcars are very close to each other, so I'm guessing that the LIRR operates more (though shorter) trains, while Metro-North operates fewer (but longer) trains. Does that seem plausible? Metro-North is shown as having more track miles, but their system is much simpler in terms of branching and connectivity. So LIRR would have more expenses for operating towers and interlockings. Also, LIRR must pay Amtrak for use of Penn Station and the East River tunnels, while Metro-North gets paid by Amtrak for use of its Hudson and New Haven line trackage. Lastly, 2 of those 5 active Metro-North lines are really run by NJ Transit. Are they charging Metro-North less than what it would cost for MN to run such lines itself? |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Aug 27 14:15:29 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 27 13:59:39 2014. And fewer terminals. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Aug 27 14:24:12 2014, in response to Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014. These figures don't take into account differences in service levels.MN operated 1,680,138 vehicle-revenue-hours in 2012. LIRR operated 2,038,495 during the same period. That's 21% more service. That explains part of the difference. Data from the National Transportation Database 2012 Agency Profiles Report. Left unsaid is whether these service levels are required. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 27 14:29:02 2014, in response to Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014. All kinds of interesting stuff here:- LIRR has higher weekday ridership, but MN has higher overall. That indicates a LOT more people use Metro North on the weekends - Does the MN trackage include the Pascack Valley line? If not, that's a huge disparity with the LIRR, even if you exclude the Beacon line - I would have never guessed that Metro North's car fleet would be higher than the LIRR's, given all the branches and the longer trains the LIRR has/runs. - I am at a loss to explain why the LIRR costs $400 million more to run than Metro North, given these stats. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 27 14:30:19 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 27 13:59:39 2014. But more miles of track to maintain. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Aug 27 14:53:47 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 27 13:59:39 2014. True. But more miles of track, just about as many riders, and just about as many stations. The only real effect of more branches is that it's hard to provide decent frequency in off-peak periods. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Wed Aug 27 15:04:39 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 27 14:29:02 2014. Does the MN trackage include the Pascack Valley line?Don't forget, Metro North also owns the Port Jervis Line, from Port Jervis down to Suffern. That's a distance of about 56 rail miles. The Metro North owned segment of the Pascack Valley Line is only about 6 miles, between Spring Valley and Pearl River... |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 15:22:04 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 27 14:29:02 2014. 
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Aug 27 16:01:23 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 15:22:04 2014. Interesting - Pensions and OPEB (Other Post-Employment Benefits such as retiree medical and life insurance) for LIRR are more than 2.5 times that of Metro North. Much more overtime, too. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cost 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Bill West on Wed Aug 27 16:34:55 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Aug 27 16:01:23 2014. I think you have a lead there Bob. MNR is only now getting to having employees retire with a full career (say 35 years) within the company. I assume that before recent times retirees left with only 25, 15 or less years' service and proportionately less MNR pension. The pension pay for the 10 to 25 years they put in before MNR would come from the Railroad Retirement Board via PC/Conrail's responsibility. All long past and recent full career retirees from the LIRR on the other hand get all their RRRB payments via LIRR's responsibility hence the bigger entry in LIRR's budget.Of course if the incremental future cost of pensions was charged up in the year the employee's work earned it, we would see a truer cost of that year's operation and less of the cost of funding these old pension obligations clobbering current operating budgets. Bill |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by sloth on Wed Aug 27 18:13:47 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 15:22:04 2014. Can someone explain what the hell a "depreciation adjustment" is? I mean, I get it's some kind of accouting shell game, but that's 25% of your difference right there. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 27 18:29:00 2014, in response to Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014. Inherent inefficiency on LIRR with overlapping branch lines. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by jasonnyc on Wed Aug 27 18:30:26 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 27 14:08:33 2014. Also MNR shares tracks in CT. The financial burden might be less considering Amtrak has to pay for use of CDOT NEC tracks, no? Same with the Hudson line? LIRR is pretty much on its own except for freight, which the NEC also has. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Aug 27 20:09:59 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by jasonnyc on Wed Aug 27 18:30:26 2014. Actually Amtrak pays nothing for track use in CT or NY as part of core network, in return both states do not pay for Amtrak services other than Adirondack as 404 b service. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Aug 27 23:18:03 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 27 14:08:33 2014. Lastly, 2 of those 5 active Metro-North lines are really run by NJ Transit. Are they charging Metro-North less than what it would cost for MN to run such lines itself?Good question, as, even for commuter rail, Metro North takes a huge bath on the PJL - a long line to maintain that has low ridership. And its going to cost them another $1 million to a) cut the parking fees to almost nothing and b) add that mid afternoon 'gap' train westbound to Port that people have been asking for. Right now, before the peak trains start at 4, the last train before that leaves HOB at 1:15 (1:00 connecting from PS), and then turns at Middletown instead of going all the way to Port. On Friday, MN/NJT is running an 'getaway' special out of HOB at 2:45 - one suspects this will be about the time of the new run. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Aug 28 19:03:21 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Aug 27 20:09:59 2014. There is no more 403b. It is called PRIAA-209, which means NYS pays the deficit on all Empire Corridor trains except for 48/49. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Aug 28 21:34:35 2014, in response to Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by heypaul on Wed Aug 27 12:28:53 2014. It all comes down to cost of labor. All LIRR crafts make an average of 10-15% more (except engineers) than MN crafts. Simple example, a ticker seller in Penn Sta (LIRR) makes $1500 for a 40 hr week whereas an MN ticket seller in GCT makes close to $1200 for the same 40 week.This wage disparity has been going on since the Rockefeller years. Back in the late 60s, the LIRR MP 54s were falling apart en masse. Between 20 & 30 trains a day were canceled back then. Enter the M-1s to save the day. Didn't work out that way, right away. They had so many de-bugging problems that kept them out of service which in turn gave a stay of execution to all those MP-54s. They got a new lease on life, fresh duct tape & chicken wire to keep them "running". So Gov Rockefeller proclaims that soon the LIRR will be the best commuter railroad in the country. With that proclamation, our generous gov gives the unions unprecedented raises to boost morale & encourage productivity. As the M-1s came on line & the MP54s got the one way barge ride down the East River, train cancelations came down & Rockefeller came out smelling like a rose. Those increases created a huge base pay gap compared to what then ex NYC/NHRR were getting. Thus the parity issue, which to this day is a thorn in the side of high seniority MN employees. New hirees are told to shut up, don't bitch & be glad you have a job. |
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Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North? |
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Posted by heypaul on Thu Aug 28 22:00:19 2014, in response to Re: Why Does LIRR Cosy 30% More to Operate Than Metro-North?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Aug 28 21:34:35 2014. Thank you for the explanation. |
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