$11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form

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$11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Gold_12th on Sun Jul 27 12:26:21 2014 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d MTA says it has filled in all the sinkholes discovered at a critical construction site for the nearly $11 billion East Side Access project, but can't rule out new holes forming in the future. In April, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority announced it had found five surface depressions at the Harold Interlocking -- a large train junction in Long Island City, Queens, where much of the construction work is going on for East Side Access, which has been plagued by years of cost overruns and delays. The agency launched an investigation that included hiring outside geotechnical engineers to inspect the sinkholes. MTA spokesman Aaron Donovan said Thursday that the MTA has wrapped up the investigation after finding 11 sinkholes in total. Eight measured between 1 and 3 feet deep, but three larger ones were from 7 to 9 feet deep. All had diameters of 1 to 3 feet. LIVE: Latest LIRR alerts and commuting conditions PHOTOS: How the LIRR has changed over the past century Investigators determined that the holes were caused by a combination of loose soil conditions at the Harold site and heavy rains this past spring. On two particularly rainy days -- March 29 and April 30 -- the downpours pushed down the soft dirt into empty underground pockets, causing sinkholes to form on the surface, Donovan said. "It naturally wants to go down and fill in the underground open space," Donovan said of the soil. "The real villain behind this whole thing is Mother Nature." Although crews had to temporarily suspend some work near the sites of the sinkholes, Donovan said there was "not a measurable impact" on the budget or the timeline of East Side Access. Five contractor crews working at about a dozen other sites were able to continue at those locations while the sinkholes were remedied. Also, Donovan said, East Side Access has contingency funding built in to cover such "real-world problems." Donovan said workers filled in all the identified holes, using soil similar to that displaced. While Donovan said the MTA is "confident" that the holes won't recur at the same locations, he said it's possible new sinkholes will form if rainfall again pushes down on the soft ground at Harold, which includes earth excavated when the East River tunnels were built a century ago. East Side Access, referred to by the MTA as the largest public works project going on in the United States, aims to link the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal via newly bored tunnels. Setbacks have increased both the timeline and the cost of the so-called "megaproject," once pegged for completion by 2009 at a price tag of $4.3 billion. The Federal Transit Administration now says it won't be finished before 2023 and projects the cost at nearly $11 billion. http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mta-11-east-side-access-sinkholes-filled-but-new-holes-possible-1.8898942
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jul 27 13:12:52 2014, in response to $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by Gold_12th on Sun Jul 27 12:26:21 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d "Donovan said there was "not a measurable impact" on the budget or the timeline of East Side Access." Soviet Speak for mega-millions of dollars, or rubles or whatever. ROAR
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 27 13:15:31 2014, in response to $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by Gold_12th on Sun Jul 27 12:26:21 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Ah, sinkholes. Shoulda put all that money towards a new Union Station downtown, shared with NJT. Would have also prevented the downgrade of the Atlantic Avenue line.
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jul 27 21:41:06 2014, in response to $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by Gold_12th on Sun Jul 27 12:26:21 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Forgive the dumb question...how did they do all that tunneling in the same area 100+ years ago, with primitive tunneling methods & less geologic expertise without similar problems ?? Has the geology changed that much east of the East river to create more sinkhole problems now v/s then?? Something dosen't make sense here.
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 27 21:52:54 2014, in response to Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jul 27 21:41:06 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They were doing bore and shield construction and were still having a hell of a bad time. There was a documentary on Penn Station earlier this year and they went into what a living hell the east river tunnels were as compared to the much simpler task of digging under the Hudson.
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jul 27 22:19:43 2014, in response to Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 27 21:52:54 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d This is true, but how much time did it take to complete the job?? It seems that with todays expertise, it should take much less time than its taking. That was my point. My basic geology class at St Helena's taught us that Long Island is an "outwash plain" aka residue left over from a giant retreating glacier (huge sandbar in other words). Manhattan was solid rock, much different, geologically speaking than Long Island. That explains the relative ease of building the Independent subway along Queens Blvd. Cut & cover thru sandstone. A "snap" in terms of subway tunneling. Bottom line,in LIC, the engineers should have known what they were digging thru & not seemed so suprised at what they found to justify delays which translates into cost overruns. Someones feet should be held to the fire.
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 27 22:44:58 2014, in response to Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jul 27 22:19:43 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Well that's what surprised me about it ... given that they're digging EXACTLY where the PRR did a century earlier, you'd think that the engineering firms behind it would have hit up the library. :) They ran into identical geology in Boston under the MBTA tracks when doing the "big dig" under it, and the solution there was to install shitloads of pipes and literally freeze the ground so that they could dig through the virtual quicksand there. It was an engineering marvel of its time and after all that work and successfully digging the tunnel, it's ending up proving challenges now that also weren't considered as part of the original construction plans. Whoops! http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/08/thawing_soil_leaves_potential.html
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jul 28 07:45:50 2014, in response to Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jul 27 22:19:43 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They are not building the same thing. Also remember, they are NOT digging under the East River. THAT tunnel, the 63rd Street tunnel) was already built. Building under Manhattan is not too much of a problem, they are down in the deep bedrock. But Queens is a different geology altogether or so apparently. ROAR
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 28 09:04:58 2014, in response to Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 27 22:44:58 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The sad thing is the cost of this and time it is taking. They built the entire Pennsylvania Station project, tunnels, station, etc in less time and less adjusted money. They can't even make this connection, with an already built east river tunnel.
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 28 09:16:27 2014, in response to Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 27 22:44:58 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The Soviets did that to build the Red Gates building in Moscow.
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Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form
Posted by Jrice on Tue Jul 29 12:49:26 2014, in response to Re: $11 Billion East Side Access project: 11 sinkholes filled, but new sinkholes may form, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jul 27 21:41:06 2014. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Of the incidences, only three were technically even sinkholes, and those were negligible (1' wide), not impacting service or caused by the rail tunnels. One was over a utility microtunnel, but away from tracks. The other two were due to isolated compaction problems, again away from tracks. The rest of the incidences are a common spring occurrence. heavy rains wash out dry soil. Exacerbated by construction. This was only reported because the MN derailment had just occurred. LIRR wanted a full review and nothing kept from the press. So something that would never have made news, made news.
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