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| (1300523) | |
Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 14:42:27 2014 Wednesday, July 02, 2014Amtrak RFP seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets Written by Douglas John Bowen Amtrak RFP seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsetsAmtrak Amtrak said Tuesday, July 2, 2014 it has officially issued its Request for Proposals (RFP) for 28 next-generation high speed trainsets to replace its current Acela Express equipment on the Northeast Corridor (NEC). Amtrak expects the new gear to be "capable of meeting or exceeding current Acela trip-times on the existing NEC infrastructure," and added, "The new equipment is intended to have 40% \ more seats per train than current trainsets." "The Northeast Corridor needs more high speed rail capacity to help move the American economy forward," said President and CEO Joseph Boardman. "More and more people are choosing Amtrak for travel between Washington, New York, and Boston. New equipment means more seats and more frequent departures to help meet that growing demand." Current manufacturers of HSR equipment, defined as manufacturers with equipment in commercial operation at speeds of at least 160 mph, will be eligible to submit bids, Amtrak said. Responses are due by Oct. 1, 2014, an Amtrak spokesman informed Railway Age. The move comes as Amtrak's Acela Express service struggles to handle increasing demand. Amtrak said Acela Express ridership is up 7% from a year ago and trains are often sold out, especially during peak periods. On 25 occasions so far in fiscal year 2014, which began Oct. 1, 2014, the number of daily trips on Acela topped 14,000. That's compared to five times in FY13, Amtrak noted. Amtrak's RFP follows a mutual decision announced late last month by Amtrak and the California High-Speed Rail Authority not to seek a joint order of HSR equipment. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 15:15:05 2014, in response to Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 14:42:27 2014. Funny how that was not the case when Amtrak was ordering the |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by kp5308 on Fri Jul 4 15:17:28 2014, in response to Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 14:42:27 2014. Amtrak's RFP follows a mutual decision announced late last month by Amtrak and the California High-Speed Rail Authority not to seek a joint order of HSR equipment.I guess Amtrak doesn't have 20 years to wait :o) |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 4 16:04:21 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 15:15:05 2014. It all has to do who senior management was at the time.Joe Boardman wasn't in charge then. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 4 16:07:51 2014, in response to Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 14:42:27 2014. Wondering if the Acela sets get scrapped or used for conventional NEC services?They are really not old and seem to perform fairly well. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 16:11:38 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by kp5308 on Fri Jul 4 15:17:28 2014. Photo from my article, I forgot to post.
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 16:26:06 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 4 16:07:51 2014. Good question, Bill. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 17:12:06 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 4 16:07:51 2014. What use is the Acela for "conventional NEC services"? It's not like the Metroliner; it can't stop at every station (no steps/trapdoors), the ends of the cars are not conventional (no normal vestibules), and it can't work with any other Amtrak cars.How do they "seem to perform fairly well"? They had to be tweaked to even get them to this point. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 17:13:47 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 4 16:04:21 2014. Amtrak "senior management" didn't write FRA rules with respect to "Tier II crashworthiness" and track classes. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 17:25:42 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 4 16:07:51 2014. The mechanical people want them "off the property".That is what were told last week by someone from Amtrak capital planning discussing "NEC Futures". |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 17:26:47 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 16:11:38 2014. Looks a little like an ICE. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 4 17:35:29 2014, in response to Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 14:42:27 2014. Amazing these train sets are the same age as the R142s and R143s and yet Amtrak is already ordering replacements. The current Acela train sets don't even run on the weekends in the masses. AEM7s and M2s have been running everyday for the past 40 years. The P42s are even older and yet no word on there replacements. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 4 17:57:07 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 4 17:35:29 2014. For comparison purposes, SNCF still has 1978 vintage TGV Sud-Est sets after three refurbishments still running in service at 300 km/h (186 mph) service... |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 4 18:07:19 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 4 17:57:07 2014. amazing what non amtrak maintenance can achieve isn't it? VIA has Budd coaches/diners/sleepers still running from the 1950s Canadian. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 18:57:45 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 4 17:57:07 2014. Those are not tilt trains. And they didn't start in 186-mph service, but 164 mph. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 18:58:51 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 4 18:07:19 2014. Those are heavily rebuilt. But yes, Amtrak could have done the same. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 19:00:38 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 17:25:42 2014. Telephone, telegraph, tell a railfan . . . |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 19:49:50 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 19:00:38 2014. Go fuck yourself. You know nothing. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:39:12 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 17:13:47 2014. They did decide to comply with the Tier II crashworthiness regulations before those regulations were put into effect rather than trying to beat the lawmakers and get the trainsets in based on older, more rational requirements. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:39:55 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by kp5308 on Fri Jul 4 15:17:28 2014. Much more likely that California didn't want to be saddled with the requirements for the NEC's mess. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:41:08 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jul 4 17:57:07 2014. And that children is why we build dedicated high speed rail lines. Shared ops beat the hell out of the equipment and the tracks. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Jul 5 02:06:16 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:41:08 2014. Helps if the trains aren't French. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 02:09:59 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Jul 5 02:06:16 2014. Yeah, they're Canadian, and built like tanks for the US. The "weak" French trains are the ones which have spent their nearly 35 year lifespans above 160mph, and are still going strong. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jul 5 05:42:54 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:39:55 2014. California and the NEC simply have different requirements.NEC is in more of a need of tilt (more curvy) NEC will not go over 160, California might One cannot tlt over 160. Each operator need not pay for capability it doesn't require. NEC is more likely to get funded. Split is just good business practice. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sat Jul 5 09:08:55 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:39:55 2014. Much more likely that California didn't want to be saddled with the requirements for the NEC's mess.Correction: much more likely California doesn't know what kind of mess they will end up with. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Ray Jules on Sat Jul 5 09:13:16 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 19:00:38 2014. You're a fucking asshole, you know that? |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sat Jul 5 09:26:49 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sat Jul 5 05:42:54 2014. California and the NEC simply have different requirements.California does not yet know what their requirements are. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 10:12:57 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Ray Jules on Sat Jul 5 09:13:16 2014. No, I really am not. But I call out assholes. Sorry you hate facts, but I dislike rumormongers more.BTW, WWYBYWB? And you proved that you're no railfan, because you didn't seem to recognize where I modified that from: "Telephone, telegraph, tell a railroader" . . . |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 10:17:12 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:41:08 2014. Do they now? The Berlin-Hamburg Railway seems to be holding up well. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 10:18:10 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 19:49:50 2014. LOL! Meanwhile, your rumors prove to be the opposite of reality.I haven't forgotten that you thought a three-seat ride to High Bridge NJ was viable, either. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 10:20:12 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 00:39:12 2014. Pity. They could have gone with a tweaked LRC instead and beaten them either way. As well as be able to use low platforms. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Jul 5 10:57:41 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 02:09:59 2014. French Canadian is still a form of French. Like you said the trains in France require a certain level of infrastructure support that we do not offer in the United States. It's what sunk the DeGlen compound Atlantic that was tested on the PRR. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 11:02:33 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 10:17:12 2014. DB is in the process of replacing the ICE 1 and 2 sets that ply the Hamburg-Berlin ABS with new ICx sets. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 12:28:50 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Jul 5 10:57:41 2014. They call it "maintenance-tolerant" over there, as a sort of Newspeak.Even though four-cylinder compound steamers do have the best driving wheel balance out of all spoke-drivered steamers, they still have too high of a maintenance cost, especially with the bigger size of the low-pressure cylinders. That's why boxpok drivers and steam superheating are superior. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:09:50 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Fri Jul 4 17:35:29 2014. Current Acela don't have enough seats for the peaks. That's the reason for replacement; not age, not maintenance, not French, not Canadian, not shared operations... |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 17:17:26 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:09:50 2014. That's a poor excuse for replacement. David Gunn had the idea of making the trainsets longer, which could have been done and could still be done. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:22:56 2014, in response to Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jul 4 14:42:27 2014. This is actually a reissue of their RFP - the first version went out in the spring as a definite Amtrak order with a possible California option. Despite big differences in the spec requirements (160 with tilt versus 220 and no tilt, plus different carbody widths), the hope was that time and money could be saved with one design that could be sort of used by both thanks to a shared 'platform'. The carbuilders apparently thought otherwise. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:25:44 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 17:17:26 2014. Longer train sets are technically possible. That doesn't mean it's practical. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 17:25:55 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:22:56 2014. The carbuilders? How did that become their call? |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 17:26:59 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:25:44 2014. Far more practical to make them longer and keep them that way than to leave them fixed for no reason other than that they were so delivered.Another option is to couple two sets together, but then you'd need more of them to be available. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:28:48 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 17:25:55 2014. When you issue an RFP, you talk to the carbuilders before they officially send in their proposals. If they all say that your idea won't work or that it only works but at a huge price then no reason to wait for their proposals. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:31:41 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 17:26:59 2014. But what if have to stay as delivered?Amtrak tried to purchase new cars to extend the trains but found it to be too costly. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 18:45:42 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:09:50 2014. The trains are so short in part to keep the power to weight ratio acceptable despite overweight cars. Their potentially short service lives are a direct consequence of their compliance with the FRA Tier II regulations which are themselves due to their use in shared operations. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 18:50:15 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Jul 5 10:57:41 2014. If we're going to base decisions regarding high speed rail infrastructure and rolling stock on what happened with steam engines more than a half century ago then we may as well give up and give Amtrak's funds to the airlines because we'll never have useful intercity ground transport. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 6 11:05:01 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 10:12:57 2014. You call out anybody out disagree with like the moron Sean Hannity.Repeating what is said at a meeting with Amtrak officials is not rumor mongering, stupid. What is rumor mongering, jackass, is remarks like "SEPTA will never run 7 car MLV's". (Never is a VERY long time) You are a know-nothing foamer. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 6 11:06:32 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 5 10:18:10 2014. Changing the subject to pick a fight again, uh ?Only a complete moronic spend thrift would run 7 car MLV thru trains for 10 people. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 6 11:08:46 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jace on Sat Jul 5 17:31:41 2014. Which is why AMtrak ruled it out. Too much money for train sets that will worn out long before the added coaches would be, then all have to go at once. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jace on Sun Jul 6 12:41:38 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 5 18:45:42 2014. I know you don't like Tier II but it's not the whipping boy here. The trains could have easily been longer when built, there's power to spare. Why they weren't is still somewhat of a mystery to me, but I know it was considered.As I stated elsewhere, a couple of years ago they went out to buy more coaches for the trains but got way too high a price to justify the purchase. The price (which is not the same as cost to a carbuilder) was too high not due to anything technical but rather solely to commercial issues keeping in mind that this was a joint venture. They could theoretically take the existing 20 trains and reconfigure them into fewer longer trains but they'd still need to add new trains to fill out the fleet. Having a mixed but still relatively small fleet like this probably won't make sense. If the Acelas do have a short life, and this is by no means certain yet, then it has much more to do with their lack of flexibility. A Tier III trainset of the same capacity and general characteristics (weight excluded) would face the exact same issues. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Jace on Sun Jul 6 12:48:55 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 6 11:08:46 2014. No. Had they gotten a reasonable price, they would have extended the trains despite the mis-matched ages. This is commonly done elsewhere - a number of the early Japanese high speed trainsets were later extended as were the Virgin Pendolinos. The problem here was that there was only one show in town. |
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Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jul 6 13:31:33 2014, in response to Re: Amtrak seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets, posted by Jace on Sun Jul 6 12:48:55 2014. But they did not get a reasonable price, so the proposal died. The cost/benefit didn't work. |
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