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| Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right (1286638) | |
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| (1286638) | |
Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Green over Green on Sun Apr 20 14:34:52 2014 I'm writing a short story that involves a diesel push-pull commuter train of the type used on south Florida's Tri-Rail or perhaps one of the non-electric NJT lines. I want to avoid making annoying technical errors in my descriptions. Therefore, the following questions:The train has just departed a suburban station. There is a grade crossing ahead. A foolish driver makes a made dash across the tracks as the gates begin to lower. Q1- How far beyond the station does the crossing have to be in order that the gates are open while the train is dwelling at the station? Q2 - What speed might the train have achieved at this point? Q3 - At this speed, how far in advance would the operator have to throw the train into emergency in order to stop in time should the car stall on the tracks? I know this sounds like an SAT question but I just want to write accurately. Exact numbers are unimportant, as long as the scene I write is plausible. Assume a 10 car, heavily loaded morning rush train. Any help will be greatly appreciated. |
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| (1286644) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 20 15:08:52 2014, in response to Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Green over Green on Sun Apr 20 14:34:52 2014. This depends on many things. The crossing gates are frequently right at the end of the platform, as that is where the passengers will want to go when they exit the train.So: The gates go down while the train is still some way off, but if the train stops the gates (may or may not) go back up again. If they do go up, they will come down again as soon as the train starts to move, the engineer will wait for them to come down, and at this point would be no different than a truck leaving an intersection. Should someone try to beat this train once it has moved about 10 feet or so, they might not win the race, even the if the engineer applies the brakes at once. [Gates at passenger stations usually will not go up again, gates at freight crossings usually will.] A Train leaving the station would be moving at 5 to 10 miles per hour. Reaction time is half of your stopping time, but like any car or truck driver, he is already watching cross traffic. Here is da fakts: |
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| (1286646) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Apr 20 15:24:52 2014, in response to Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Green over Green on Sun Apr 20 14:34:52 2014. Q1- How far beyond the station does the crossing have to be in order that the gates are open while the train is dwelling at the station?If a crossing is very close to a station where trains dwell for longer than a minute, gates can sometimes be controlled by either a panel on the platform (where the conductor or engineer can trigger them) or a signal tower... I *think* Port Jefferson has something like this. |
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| (1286647) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 20 15:34:39 2014, in response to Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Green over Green on Sun Apr 20 14:34:52 2014. Q 1 depends on the RR. For instance on Metra Electric on the South Chicago Branch, there are separate signals for the T/O showing the gates immediately beyond the station have deployed--can't leave the station until the signal allows. Thus the still open gates would be several blocks down the line.Q 2 In areas w/ multiple closely spaced grade crossings MAS is low. |
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| (1286653) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 20 15:47:57 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Apr 20 15:24:52 2014. On the LIRR at Long Island City, the gates are operated by hand by switchmen on the ground. They will align the switches, and once the train begins to move, they will lower the gates. It may take several minutes before the trains actually arrives at the crossing from the terminal, but by that time they WILL NOT be able to stop for you if you foul the intersection.Best bet is to visit the crossing in question and WATCH to see how they work it. ROAR |
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| (1286657) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Apr 20 16:01:45 2014, in response to Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Green over Green on Sun Apr 20 14:34:52 2014. I'll try to address your scenario in its entirety. Gates that are immediately adjacent to a station can be fitted with a timeout function so that they will go down, then raise then go down again when the train starts to move. However if a car were to stall or whatnot at that distance the train can stop in a matter of feet so I doubt it would meet your needs.The minimum amount of time between activation and the train passing is 20 seconds. Any gates is present must begin to lower 3 seconds after activation. The gate arm must be fully lowered 5 seconds prior to the train arriving. I don't know the acceleration for a push pull trainset, but its something on the order of 1 to 1.5 or so mph/s^2 so you can do the math to figure out the minimum distance between the station and a crossing would have been unactivated while the train stopped at the station. The problem is the train will only be going about 20-30mph by the time it reaches the crossing and even if there is a curve it would still probably be able to get stopped pretty quick. Don't have the car "stall" as that's becoming a discredited trope. A better one is that the driver misjudges a turn and runs off the road and onto the tracks. IE they take the turn too quick and the slick surface of the crossing area causes a spin out or understeer. You'll want to have it take place around a curve to give the engineer the least amount of time to see the vehicle and see if once you get the acceleration figured for a push pull set then don't make it any less than what is necessary for something in the 40mph + range. |
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| (1286658) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:04:14 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Apr 20 16:01:45 2014. Good scenario! |
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| (1286659) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 20 16:14:56 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:04:14 2014. or, taking a cue from true life, the angry husband who rammed the fleeing wife shoving her into the path of the train. |
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| (1286660) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:24:42 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 20 16:14:56 2014. Too Hitchcock. :) |
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| (1286661) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:25:17 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:24:42 2014. Then her car leaps ahead and it's HE who is in front of the train. Totally Hitchcock. :) |
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| (1286662) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 20 16:28:19 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:25:17 2014. But you do know this actually happened in PA several years back? So Hitchcock or no, truth... |
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| (1286663) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:37:56 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 20 16:28:19 2014. I'm sure it's happened in plenty of places. I've worked in the entertainment industry, originality doesn't sell. :) |
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| (1286664) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Apr 20 16:41:56 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 16:04:14 2014. Since standard transmissions became non-standard "stuck" on tracks is a lot more common than "stalled" on tracks. |
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| (1286666) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 17:14:07 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Apr 20 16:41:56 2014. Ahem ...
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| (1286667) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 20 17:17:26 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 17:14:07 2014. So it's the "cruze" setting that causes the problems. |
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| (1286669) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 17:27:55 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 20 17:17:26 2014. Nope ... not enough torque to the barrel or stops inside the cylinder. Had to play serious cat just once here. :) |
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| (1286671) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Apr 20 17:34:29 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 17:14:07 2014. And recovery takes about 3 seconds. Back in the day stalling took quite a bit longer to recover from. |
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| (1286676) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 20 17:53:33 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Apr 20 17:34:29 2014. Yep ... |
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| (1286715) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Green over Green on Mon Apr 21 00:40:57 2014, in response to Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Green over Green on Sun Apr 20 14:34:52 2014. Thanks for all the great responses. Actually the train isn't going to hit the car; that's just a setup for what happens later. The train operator is going to cuss about the stupidity of people when it comes to trains, but later someone is going to jump in front of him from a platform.I want to tell the story from the operator's point of view, to show how devastating it is for him. There are lots of suicides by train, but usually the focus is on the "victim". All we ever hear about the operator are questions about whether he was texting or high on drugs or alcohol. For authenticity I want to say something about how long it takes to stop the train in an emergency. |
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| (1286776) | |
Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Apr 21 13:39:01 2014, in response to Re: Commuter Rail - Help a Fiction Writer Get the Technical Facts Right, posted by Green over Green on Mon Apr 21 00:40:57 2014. you need to read Joe Santucci's annual column about the night he hit a car w/teenagers w/his freight. HotTimesonthe HighIron which Jersey used to post links to still exists. Seems to me Tuch runs the wreck column in Oct or Nov around the anniversary. The PTSD from these incidents are reportedly awful. |
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