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| (1266248) | |
Map Question |
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Posted by Graham on Fri Dec 27 09:22:11 2013 Anyone got a map showing the direction of the currently unused tunnels running from 2nd Avenue station to Avenue A or thereabouts? |
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| (1266264) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Dec 27 10:17:54 2013, in response to Map Question, posted by Graham on Fri Dec 27 09:22:11 2013. The direction...? |
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| (1266280) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 27 11:20:47 2013, in response to Map Question, posted by Graham on Fri Dec 27 09:22:11 2013. There's a note on Pete Dougherty's map from maybe 10 years ago that the center tracks extend beyond the false wall. The direction is roughly east. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1266331) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Dec 27 15:26:04 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 27 11:20:47 2013. I'm not sure of the exact length of the tracks beyond the false wall, but I don't think it's a full 600 ft . Back when the B ran 8 X 60 ft cars, one 8 car train was stored beyond the station on each of the tracks during the midday and I don't recall there being much more room for any longer trains. |
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| (1266339) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 27 16:45:35 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Fri Dec 27 15:26:04 2013. The tracks extend for 535 feet, east of the 2nd Ave station. So, it could store only an 8 car train of sixty footers. |
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| (1266366) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Dec 27 19:09:51 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 27 16:45:35 2013. Thanks. |
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| (1266368) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Dec 27 19:39:22 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Fri Dec 27 15:26:04 2013. at the end of track the ROW spreads out.looks like they were planning a 3rd.track as a layup[iirc] |
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| (1266465) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Sat Dec 28 16:31:00 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Dec 27 19:39:22 2013. Not only do the trackways spread out, but there is the start of what could either be a diamond Xover or a third track. Some of the sources I have seen have indicated that it would have been for a middle track in the next station on the line. Since there are photos of R-1s with a "Houston/Essex" destination reading, I would imagine that the next station would have been a 3 track 2 island platform station at Essex St with the middle track being used for short turns. |
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| (1266495) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Graham on Sat Dec 28 21:27:52 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Sat Dec 28 16:31:00 2013. There's a map from 1931 (Which if I was sure of the location) might clear things up over at the JoeKorner websitehttp://www.thejoekorner.com/indsecondsystem/s4th2.gif |
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| (1266526) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Dec 29 01:36:06 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Dec 27 19:39:22 2013. the "x-press" tracks at 2nd/houston were supposed to be for another line into the south 4th street station along with the worth st subway. |
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| (1266527) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Graham on Sun Dec 29 01:42:45 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Graham on Sat Dec 28 21:27:52 2013. Now that I have myself oriented I'm guessing that the line (starting at Houston St (2nd Avenue) would have been:Houston St (2nd Ave) - Houston St (Essex St) - Houston St (Pitt St) and thence to the tunnel under the Hudson River The above is of course if I've guessed the station spacing correctly. |
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| (1266528) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Dec 29 01:45:58 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Graham on Sun Dec 29 01:42:45 2013. east river not Hudson River |
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| (1266529) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Dec 29 01:51:22 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Sat Dec 28 16:31:00 2013. 3 track 2 island platform station at Essex St with the middle track being used for short turns.i'm pretty sure bedford-nostrand ave station would of have the same setup if the ind phase II's myrtle-central ave subway to the rockaway line were built. |
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| (1266557) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Dec 29 09:09:20 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by renee gil on Sun Dec 29 01:36:06 2013. I KNOW.I,VE POSTED ON IT SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE YEARS. |
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| (1266561) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Dec 29 09:53:29 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Graham on Sun Dec 29 01:42:45 2013. Now that I have myself oriented I'm guessing that the line (starting at Houston St (2nd Avenue) would have been:Houston St (2nd Ave) - Houston St (Essex St) - Houston St (Pitt St) and thence to the tunnel under the Hudson River The above is of course if I've guessed the station spacing correctly. I don't think you have. IND spacing tends to be every half mile. The east end of the 2nd Ave station is at 1st Ave. It's only 0.15 mi from there to Essex Street. Then it's another 0.45 mi to Pitt/Ave C. So probably only that latter stop. |
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| (1266592) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Dec 29 16:02:57 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by AlM on Sun Dec 29 09:53:29 2013. "Normal" IND station spacing is 1/2 mile, but there are several locations on the iND where stations are closer together such as 168 to 163, 86 to 81, both 5 blocks and 110 to 116 Sts and 175 to 181, 6 blocks. Sometimes the importance of a particular street or the presence of a certain tourist attraction may mandate a station be place at a non standard location. The distance between Jay St and Hoyt is also relatively short, but the mergers of the various IND lines pretty much determined the locations of those stations. Also given the fact that R-1s as delivered had a destination sign reading for "Houston/Essex" seems to lend credence to the location of the next station along Houston St as being Essex St or at least named for it. |
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| (1266593) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Dec 29 16:08:01 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by renee gil on Sun Dec 29 01:51:22 2013. That sounds about right. The only thing I don't understand about that area on the G Line is why the subway infrastructure narrows to 2 tracks between Bed/Nost and Classon and widens to 3 tracks through Classon instead of being 3 tracks wide all the way from Bed/Nost into Classon. |
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| (1266630) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 29 19:26:33 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Graham on Sun Dec 29 01:42:45 2013. There were no second system route markers on the R1/9's. "HOUSTON-ESSEX"was the original rollsign marker for East Broadway, when it was the terminal, for 8th Ave-Houston trains, between Jan 1st, 1936 and April 9th, 1936. The 2nd Ave station lies between 1st and 2nd Ave's. You mean to tell me they would have put another station one block from 1st Ave? I don't think so!!! |
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| (1266649) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 29 20:44:03 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Sun Dec 29 16:02:57 2013. Although the station on CPW is called 81st, it is really a 79th St. station. But the big cross street there is 81st as 79th is blocked by the museum. |
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| (1266671) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Dec 30 00:40:41 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Sun Dec 29 16:08:01 2013. i know right? you would of think that the middle trackway would be continuous from classon ave to beford-nostrand, but it's not.maybe at one point during construction, when the myrtle-central ave line to the rockaways wasn't going to be built, it was decided that the crosstown going to be built as a 2- track tunnel bet. classon & beford-nostrand??? well, that's my take on it. i'm not really sure to be honest. why that part of the crosstown subway were built like that is beyond me.... |
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| (1266679) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 01:12:37 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 29 19:26:33 2013. Why would the destination sign read "Houston/Essex" when the name of the station is "East Bway?" As I mentioned in my post, the IND does have stations which are a bit closer together than the standard distance. |
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| (1266696) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Dec 30 04:33:35 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 01:12:37 2013. It's more than just being close together. As pointed out earlier, the distance between Essex and Pitt is a lot longer than 600 feet. Plus, if you look at the map pointed out by Graham, the station on Houston St. is bounded by Clinton and Pitt, both of which are east of Essex.A pity those 2 LES stations were never built, they would have come in handy now. |
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| (1266761) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 30 14:03:17 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by 3-9 on Mon Dec 30 04:33:35 2013. I'll try it a different way with the IND's rollsign system. For example,FULTON- EUCLID AVE, meant Euclid Ave station on the Fulton line (not the intersection of Fulton St & Euclid Ave); BROOKLYN- SMITH-9TH STREET and BROOKLYN- CHURCH AVE, meant those 2 stations on the Brooklyn section of- the Brooklyn- Queens line; CONCOURSE- 205th STREET, meant 205th St & Bainbridge Ave (not 205th St & the Concourse). HOUSTON- ESSEX referred to the shuttle that conected East Broadway and Delancey St to 2nd Ave and Houston Street. It ran between Jan 1st, 1936 until April 9th, 1936, when the Rutgers tunnel connected the line to Jay St, Brooklyn. There was never a Second system station planned for Essex Street ON Houston St and there were NEVER any Second System route signs on the IND! I wish someone would post a picture of the Houston- Essex shuttle, with its route markers between East Broadway and 2nd Ave, or Broadway- Lafayette. It would be a rare photo, since it only ran from Jan 1st- April 9th, 1936. |
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| (1266796) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 17:00:14 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 30 14:03:17 2013. That would be logical except for one thing. All of the other destinations included the actual name of the station along with the line on which it was located. E/Bway was never called Essex St so if that were to have been the terminal, the destination in all likelihood would have read "Houston/E Bway." Also, why would there be a shuttle from /Bway and either 2 Av or Bway/Laf since there would have been a mainline service from 8 Av serving the Houston St Line (probably the E) and would have operated through to E/Bway rather than in sections. |
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| (1266798) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Dec 30 17:09:03 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 17:00:14 2013. It still makes no sense to have a 2nd Ave station with an entrance at 1st Ave/Allen and then another station at Ave A/Essex. That's the distance of 3 short blocks. |
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| (1266817) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 18:28:27 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by AlM on Mon Dec 30 17:09:03 2013. Ordinarily it wouldn't make sense but if the IND wanted a convenient place to short turn trains it might have been a matter of necessity to have stations that close together. The 175 St station and the 181 St station on the A line are a bit closer together than standard IND spacing probably because the city wanted a station a bit closer to the under construction GWB than 181 St would have been. |
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| (1266882) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 31 10:43:23 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 18:28:27 2013. While it's true that the distance can be shorter than usual (the distance between East Bway and Delancey is a bit over 600 feet from end to end), I'm not so sure in this case. Is there any other evidence other than the map that was posted and the sign as to where the station would have been? It seems like the having the station between Clinton and Pitt makes more sense, both for distance and location. |
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| (1266886) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Dec 31 10:53:21 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 17:00:14 2013. Was this shuttle train in existence for a very short period of time, since possibly - maybe the Rutgers Tunnel was not complete, but those stations were? I do not really know, just wondering?Mike |
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| (1266925) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 15:42:01 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 17:00:14 2013. Go to nytimes.com, enter, "Houston-Essex subway line", in the search bar and see for yourself! Maybe then, you will believe me. "Kirk out!!!" |
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| (1266932) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 16:17:39 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 30 18:28:27 2013. What are now storage tracks A-1 and A-2, north of 168th St IND station were supposed to connect to the GWB via Broadway. |
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| (1266937) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 31 16:40:14 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 30 14:03:17 2013. It ran between Jan 1st, 1936 until April 9th, 1936,Elkeeper: The Houston Street Line opened on January 1, 1936 and "E" trains ran between Roosevelt Avenue and East Broadway. May I ask what you reference is for the shuttle? There was and is a double crossover south of Delancey Street so there was no need for a shuttle. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1266940) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 31 17:09:57 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 15:42:01 2013. I tried that and I get everything except info relative to the IND subway. |
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| (1266941) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 17:11:35 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 31 16:40:14 2013. No problem! |
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| (1266943) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 17:12:38 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 17:11:35 2013. nycsubway-dot-org |
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| (1266944) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 17:15:17 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 31 17:09:57 2013. Did you try, "IND Houston-Essex subway line", when you attempeted it? otherwise, you get all Dallas, TX crap! |
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| (1266958) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 31 18:30:59 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 17:15:17 2013. Still didn't help. I got something about Subway sandwich shops in Houston Tx and nothing else. |
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| (1266959) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 18:33:27 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 31 18:30:59 2013. "Houston-Essex IND subway tunnel, NYC". try that! |
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| (1266968) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 19:24:21 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Michael549 on Tue Dec 31 10:53:21 2013. The shuttle ran from the lower platforms of West 4th Street to East Broadway. This was from Jan 1st to Apr 9th, 1936. Then, the "E" ran on Houston and Essex via the Rutgers tunnel, to Jay St, Brooklyn. |
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| (1266974) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 31 20:18:13 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 18:33:27 2013. Still doesn't work. How were you able to come up with anything? |
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| (1266990) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 31 22:36:34 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 31 17:09:57 2013. I tried that and I get everything except info relative to the IND subway. Then you're doing it wrong. Take Pride,
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| (1266991) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 31 22:37:00 2013, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 31 20:18:13 2013. Still doesn't work. How were you able to come up with anything? The two of you are hilarious. Take Pride,
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| (1267046) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Jan 1 06:17:11 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 31 18:33:27 2013. With this entry, I got a hit from Wikipedia, under "IND Sixth Avenue Line". |
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| (1267048) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jan 1 06:24:37 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Dec 31 22:37:00 2013. And YOU even MORE so. Because if you were so smart, YOU would have posted the direct link in order to show them what idiots they are. But you COULDN'T, could you? Nope. |
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| (1267065) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jan 1 09:33:43 2014, in response to Map Question, posted by Graham on Fri Dec 27 09:22:11 2013.  Nestled between 6Th and 7Th Avenues on 53Rd St. is the IND's powerhouse. It also has an unused Entrance/Exit to the double level 7Th Ave station. Note, the middle opening, with light. There was a time one could see an IND type stairs descending to the lower levels. It may still be so. On the opposite (north) side of 53Rd. street in the Hilton Hotel Garage entrance. The western most section has a series of doors that only open from the inside. Beyond these doors, there is another set of stairs descending to the lower levels. I don't know if there is a fare control area below, or if the entrance was ever open to the public before the Hilton was built. Perhaps our very own Tunnel Rat has the answer on these stairs, entrance and behind the Hilton Doors. This is almost as noteworthy as 76Th Street! |
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| (1267075) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 1 10:21:51 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jan 1 09:33:43 2014. nope,1st.time I,m hearing about this.good find,you have made me proud of you |
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| (1267077) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 1 10:32:42 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 1 10:21:51 2014. So, the question is what building existed before the Hilton, in the early 1930's? I presume that those stairways led to the 7th Ave end of the station. |
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| (1267078) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jan 1 10:34:14 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jan 1 10:21:51 2014. Best part, is it's conveniently located near all the midtown places of interest.These stairs are at the eastern end (6TH Ave) of the platforms. They were caged off, but visible before the platforms were rehabbed. Signs said Employee entrance. I suspect mezzanine space was used for some other purpose, as was the case of many mezzanines through out the IND. The western end (7Th Ave) is where the entrance and fare control is. |
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| (1267080) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 1 10:36:43 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by 3-9 on Wed Jan 1 06:17:11 2014. Go there, and read the first paragraph of the overview. |
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| (1267082) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jan 1 10:40:00 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 1 10:32:42 2014. YES!I think the Hilton was built late 1950's - 1960's. Maybe, just maybe the Hilton has a cornerstone. That or the Hilton Management know when it was built. |
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| (1267083) | |
Re: Map Question |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 1 10:42:26 2014, in response to Re: Map Question, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jan 1 10:34:14 2014. The 7th Ave station lies between 7th Ave, on the eastern end, and Broadway, on the western one. |
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