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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Dec 17 07:01:24 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 14:46:27 2013. Yes, after I posted, I read other posts in the thread, including yours and the very detailed ones provided by Joe...As I said, I wasn't around in 1956, and I never saw any unmodified (is that a word?) elevated lines, so I'm reliant on those who have detailed memories of those days and/or have done real research. I thank you and others for your "stories of the road"...(channeling Dan Fogelberg here) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Dec 17 07:11:02 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 00:05:51 2013. Ok..I just glanced at the site- and I'm SERIOUSLY impressed. I've bookmarked it so I can look at it in detail when I have more time...WOW...I wish I had the time and patience for something like that... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 07:39:31 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 01:47:26 2013. As always, mind = blown! :)Looks SO much better than those VHS captures ... the detail is ... stunning! So ... no Honark's Pigway? Heh. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 07:41:23 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 02:57:12 2013. Simply wow! :)Glad to see you're still at it too. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 07:45:02 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Dec 17 07:11:02 2013. Unca Joe has been highly dedicated for a long, long time. Thought folks might want to see how he backs up his knowledge with "proff." :) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Tue Dec 17 12:56:55 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by CJ on Tue Dec 17 00:54:02 2013. Wow, those El segments stirred my loins! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 17 16:52:18 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 01:11:06 2013. I don't deny the IRT did what it did for whatever reasons since i personally saw both types of 3rd rail still in use on portions of the lines that had joint operation. However, according to the old pre unification IRT employees i worked with who were still on the job when I started, the IRT was a cheap outfit that only upgraded its equipment if it resulted in a financial benefit to the company. Keeping that in mind it is just surprising that the IRT would have invested in what was essentially an unnecessary duplication since it would seem that having both subway and el cars utilize el type of 3rd rail would have saved the company not only in terms of initial installation, but maintenance costs as well. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 17 21:39:51 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 17 16:52:18 2013. One Mo' Time- The Manhattan elevateds were electrified with their own el type third rail, starting in 1900. The Interboro did not lease the MER until April 1st, 1903, right after most of MER had been electrified with their old el type third rail. The IRT installed subway and elevated type third rail, on most of their Bronx routes, as they were later built. Apparently, the IRT was so eager to lease the MER, they accepted most of their demands. You could almost say that the Manhattan Elevated Division was semi-autonomous in nature. Their Directors sat on the Interboro Board of Directors and had quite a bit of say. As previously stated here, they had their own crews and proceedures. And remember, the MER had the tunnel between Sedgewick Ave and Anderson/Jerome constructed for el type 3rd rail, even though the IRT was footing the construction bill! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 18 03:20:48 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 17 16:52:18 2013. Hello again, Randyoand EL KEEPER Randyo, you are correct - and so is EL KEEPER in his commentary reply to you, of course. And remember, there were City GOVERNMENT FUNDS involved that built extensions of both IRT and BMT lines, including elevateds, per DUAL Contracts. So it could be that the DUAL 3rd Rail was a shared expense between IRT and the City, or fully of the public funds solely.. An interesting parallel development in IRT history --- as follows: The LEXINGTON SUBWAY extension of the original IRT northward from E.42md Street north to Harlem River, as you likely know, was built FOR and designed with wider clearances FOR THE BMT SUBWAY SYSTEM. THATS WHY there were for decades seen, steel 6" gap filler plates installed on all the station platforms on that subway line segment of the line for as long as I remember (well, they were still there in the 1980's) - so when the BMT decided at the last minute to NOT take possession of it, nor run BMT Trains to the Bronx, the IRT was given operational possession of the line and connected it to its Park Avenue South (aka Fourth Ave back then) original 1904 subway route. In fact, a couple of blocks of BMT Subway tunnels were started UNDER south Lexington Avenue at some point much further below E.42nd Street to connect to that northern (above E.42St) portion of the new upper Lexington Avenue subway route line. From what I remember, those unfinished very few blocks of tunnels on lower Lex Ave. were later filled in if I recall correctly. So the BMT would have, if things went differently back then, paralleled part of the one block away IRT Original 1904 subway line under Park Ave. South ! Also, the Woodlawn and Pelham Lines were structurally being built under Dual Contracts to BMT Car width standards in original steelwork construction. Had the BMT ran up Lexington Avenue, it would have operated on the Woodlawn and Pelham Elevateds!. Because the BMT rejected the Bronx routings, the IRT was given possession and the wooden platforms on EL stations on those two Elevated lines were built from the start to clear IRT (narrow rolling stock. Had the BMT operated those two lines, one would wonder if the IRT 9th Avenue EL would have been (or able to be) connected to the Woodlawn-Jerome EL - what with 10' wide BMT Standards running up there ! That 5 track wide junction with twin down ramps for the IRT connection, was part of the original River Ave. portion construction of the EL. Possibly to, under Dual Contracxts, let both IRT and BMT trains share the same Woodlawn bound tracks? One wonders ! Like was planned at Queens for the IRT anbd BMT, with "modifications" ! The IRT West Farms original EL from the E.149 St. tunnel portal to Bronx Park EAST terminal - was originally a Charter-Route approved by the City and earmarked solely for the Manhattan Railway's "Surburban Rapid Transit Company" affiliate-divison, which was itself formed to build and operate the original - as originally-built - 2 track only (all with single center island platform stations) structure for what would be the Bronx 3rd Avenue EL extension - and back then which terminated at the Bronx Park WEST Station (one stop above Fordham Road Station). As part of that "Surburban Company" City chartered planned route, a branch N.E. from the Surburban Company Line's E.143rd Street Station was approved for the Suburban Company trains to run up Willis Ave and Bergen Avenue, and swing on to Westchester Avenue up to "West Farms" (well, it WAS farms back in the 1890's !) on a to be later built new Elevated Line. The Suburban Company even made provisions for this West Farms Line branch when building the original Brick support piers much wider on the R-o-W, at the northern end of its then single level E.143rd St Island Platform Station. The piers at north end of the center island station were built much wider towards the east for the planned track connection to later be built heading over towards Willis, Bergen and finally, Westchester Avenues. Brick Piers were used for supporting the trackage steelwork girders, on the E.133rd to E.143rd Street portion of the "Private R-o-W" route (which later was residential-tenements-built-up and became an "alley" canyon for the EL to run within in later years). However, that charter-approved "West Farms EL" line plan lay dormant, until 1902, whereon when the IRT original subway was being built, and the when IRT absorbed control of the Manhattan Railway Company as a division, the IRT "captured" as part of that acquisition, that charter-authorized West Farms Route held by the Manhattan & Surburban Comnpanies. And thus the IRT planned its SUBWAY TRAINS to also connect to and operate the now decided to be built, West Farms Elevated Line route. Of course, the 3rd Ave El line under Manhattan Railway's "Surburban Company held" charter, was intended as allowed, to likewise operate on the new EL route, and an alternate, shorter new 2 track EL connection was built in 1903-4 from E.150th Street & 3rd Avenue, where Westchester Avenue also ended on the east side of 3rd Avenue. That 2 track line went East about 2 or so blocks and connected to as built new in 1903-4, an upper level flyover straight over the simultaneous construction of the subway route to its twin down ramps and curving 2 tracks going to the E.149St Tunnel Portal. That new West Farms EL was installed with EL Style 3rd Rail for initial operation about 1904-5 of 3rd Ave EL connecting EL trains via that original E.150th St-Westchester Ave connection. The later Willis-Avenue-Bergen Avenue JCT connection (which was original connecting route part of the Suburban Company 1890 charter route to West Farms), was finally built in 1916-17 along with the entire 3rd (Express) Tracking of, and double-decking of the 3rd Avenue EL "Alley EL" between Harlem River and E.143rd Street Station, where the new Bergen junction, was made but ONLY FROM THE UPPER EXPRESS LEVEL Tracks. This Bergen Junction replaced the train interlocking congestion and at grade track multiple crossings at the old E.150th Street JCT connector to the West Farms EL. However, both EL Connections remained intact until 1949, When the longer Bergen cut segment was removed, and 1952-3 when the E.150th St 2 blocks connector was, as it was out of service for many years, removed. Just a bit more history for those who would be interested. regards - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Dec 18 12:44:07 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 18 03:20:48 2013. This Bergen Junction replaced the train interlocking congestion and at grade track multiple crossings at the old E.150th Street JCT connector to the West Farms EL. However, both EL Connections remained intact until 1949, When the longer Bergen cut segment was removed, and 1952-3 when the E.150th St 2 blocks connector was, as it was out of service for many years, removed.Joe: Thanks for a thoughtful and insightful series of posts. Most of us were aware that there were differences in the subway and el third rail but you explained exactly what those differences were. I particularly liked the anecdote about the towerman at Jackson Avenue miss-routing the el train into the subway. Having been a towerman myself I can appreciate the situation. You also noted something in your last post that often gets overlooked. There were five not four Manhattan Railway elevated lines. The Suburban Railway Line in The Bronx was built in addition to the four els in Manhattan. Although the southern terminus was the joint station at 129 Street they ran as a separate operation for the first tens years or so. Also it had been the intent of the planners to build an elevated railway over private rights-of-way which is why the initial portion between 133 Street and 146 Street (+/-) ran through the back alleys of the apartment houses. This form of construction proved to be prohibitively expensive so by the time that they reached 149 Street they returned to the more conventional form of elevated construction over city streets, albeit 3rd Avenue. The el structure over the private ROW put you up close and personal with the local population. You could look in a second floor window and see what someone was having for breakfast. Its nice to know tha some form of this operation exists today on the Myrtle Avenue El north of Wyckoff Avenue. Thank you also for those pictures of the model railway. The cars are so finely detailed that you have to look twice to tell its a model. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Dec 18 15:18:28 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Dec 17 21:39:51 2013. I don't disagree, but there was still no reason for the IRT to install additional subway 3rd rail when a single el type 3rd rail would have served the purpose. The only locations where subway 3rd rail would have been necessary would have been those portions of the Bronx els were used exclusively by subway equipment and in those cases there would still only have to be a single type of 3rd rail installed. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Wed Dec 18 15:44:43 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 18 03:20:48 2013. The new Bronx dual contract lines were always supposed to go to the IRT. The company, however, was upset over only being allotted the E/Pky and Nostrand lines and not the 4 Av Line which it had wanted also and withdrew from the dual contract arrangement entirely. At that point, the PSC made arrangements to assign the Lex, Pelham and Jerome lines to the BRT and since the "new" subways were being built to the larger BRT clearances, there was no problem in connecting Lex to the BRT. When the IRT realized that it would lose the potential income from the new Bronx lines, It renegotiated and reentered the dual contracts content with the sole Bkln line it had been allotted rather that lose what it perceived to be the more important Bronx Lines. During construction of the new lines the PSC realized that building IRT extensions to the larger BRT specs would be of little use since they would be connected to the "first subway" with its limited clearances so specs for the 7 Av IRT were modified to slightly larger clearances than the original subway, but not to full BRT specs of the Lex. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 18 16:49:01 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Wed Dec 18 15:44:43 2013. Hello again Rando --Thanks for adding that very important additional background info to supplement what I had already posted (re: IRT vs: BMT new Bronx routes) in my reply to you -- you are absolutely correct ! I didn't want to overload my previous reply to you with so much more of that, as such, addition info - as it was, heh, already long enough ! ALSO - ELKEEPER made an excellent and historically valid point when commenting about the "Manhattan Railway Co." having very "heavy management and "political" influence over the then, as brand new in 1904, "fledgling" IRT "subway" Company. The "M.E.R. Co." already had nearly 25 years prior experience as demonstrated in successfully building and operating their four extensive heavy capacity Elevated lines both in the steam era and for a few years into and under their new electrification process (1900 thru 1903) overhauls, So it was obvious when the IRT assumed "divisonal" control over the "Manhattan Elevated Railways" system, that the operational, management and various levels of engineering staffs of the Manhattan Railway Co. Division had the obvious "professional" upper hand in calling and enforcing "many shots" of the how, what and why of doing things. As it was, the Manhattan Railway Div. Shop crews also were chosen to do, and did, the initial work on the final electricals installations on the IRT Composite Car first subway fleets, at the E.99th Street Major Shops-Yards of the 3rd Avenue EL, and tested them on the 2nd Avenue Elevated line prior to the first IRT subway line opening in Oct. 1904. And was Manhattan Railway "Division", of then then IRT, was commissioned by the H&M Railroad to likewise do so on the first original fleet of H&M Subway (aka "Black") cars, which were also tested on the 2nd Ave EL, prior to return to H&M for operation on their new transit system. Nonetheless, this is all very intersting history to share here ! Regards - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Dec 18 17:14:40 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Dec 18 12:44:07 2013. Hello Larry (Redbird)Thanks for your stated appreciation of my lengthy if history laden messages. So you were a towerman, well then, I can understand that you would well appreciate the crew and towerman embarrasment of that particular situation, what with it being a passenger loaded revenue train. Things WERE quite simplier (maybe friendlier) back then. In that incident, no towerman and motorman and crew being taken immediately "out of service" (dragged in chains, heh ??) to go "downtown" for a "pee-cup and drug test" trip - heh ! Instead of as happened, "quickly fixing" the situation, and letting each employee involved go back to and continue working their assigned positions as usual. Similar as to what happened on the old BRT with Motorman (unlucky) Luciano and the Towerman at the Franklin Station Jct between the BRT Fulton St EL Mainline and the Brighton Line Junction route connection... where Luciano's BRT EL Train was incorrected routed outbound on the "EL" so as to go straight over across the switch track and thru into and past the Fulton EL's Franklin Station, instead of being properly diverted to the right onto the "Brighton Line" connection track junction just ahead of (west of) the station. Well, we all know what happened after that "switching error" was quickly and routinely corrected, with the "unlucky" Luciano's train finally being heading, properly, and a few reversing moves, down the long downgrade on the proper Brighton Line approach route (todays Franklin Shutte) to his immediate fate with the looming Malbone Street curve and resulting Tunnel Disaster ! I wonder what would have happpened in "your time in the tower" about 50 years later from that time (the late 1920's for the IRT incident I described), if it had similarly happened to a, any, train crew under your watch in the tower ! As far as "disciplinary" (I shudder) tactics ! If you wish to inform us ! Regards - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 19 07:22:17 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 16 16:37:07 2013. However, these extensions are less obvious than the ones done to the rest of the BMT in the late 60's. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Dec 19 08:36:16 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Dec 18 12:44:07 2013. I've seen those parts of the Myrtle Ave Line...like near Forest Avenue... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 19 12:00:24 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 16 16:37:07 2013. I was aware of the extensions on the Liberty Avenue El for the take over by the IND's Fulton Line.Was that extension from 8 67 Ft Standards? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Thu Dec 19 16:53:26 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Dec 19 12:00:24 2013. I would imagine that the platforms on Fulton could berth 8 steels like the rest of the eastern with the exception of Metropolitan which could only hold 7 steels for some reason. On the other hand, as originally built, many of the dual contract platforms could only hold 6 steels and were extended over the years to hold 8. I don't have any figures as to whether any of the stations on the rebuilt portions of Fulton including the extension to Lefferts were extended for 8 steels since the rest of the Fulton el was not rebuilt to hold steel cars and extending the platforms would have been an unnecessary expense. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 20 11:42:07 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 19 07:22:17 2013. Yes, the IND Culver extensions blend in pretty well with the original platforms! |
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