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| Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions (503663) | |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 18:16:00 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Tony Clifton on Sun Sep 22 23:19:04 2013. I'm retired almost 18 years and one of my former coworkers, while I was still working, told me that when he was a construction flagman working in that area of Euclid for the construction of Grant Av station circa 1955, he and another flagman who later became my M/M/I made a wrong turn on the way back to Euclid and ended up in a partially finished station shell that fitted all the descriptions I have ever heard about 76 St. |
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| (1249318) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 23 19:55:10 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 18:16:00 2013. Cue up Rod Serling and the Twilight Zone music.... |
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| (1249321) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 23 20:00:21 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 18:16:00 2013. how do you make a wrong turn on tracks?If you are on feet,then perhaps That could happen..but not by rail. |
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| (1249331) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Sep 23 20:47:54 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 18:08:44 2013. Yes, Houston was definitely widened. That's why to this day there are no (or few) buildings fronting on the north side of Houston between Broadway and Essex or so. |
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| (1249407) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Tony Clifton on Tue Sep 24 08:41:27 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 23 20:00:21 2013. Smdh |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Tony Clifton on Tue Sep 24 08:41:58 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 18:16:00 2013. Yes, I know, you mention it all the time... |
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| (1249502) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 24 15:08:50 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 23 20:00:21 2013. I don't know. Actually, the way he described it was that they got lost on the way back from Grant to Euclid. |
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| (1249609) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 24 22:14:09 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 24 15:08:50 2013. They took a wrong toin at Albuquoique.:) |
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| (1249800) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by gbs on Wed Sep 25 22:21:39 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by italianstallion on Mon Sep 23 20:47:54 2013. And compare it with the Houston St west of 6 Av. It's just a typical, narrow one-way street. Did you ever get off the #1 train at Houston St? Weren't you surprised that it looked nothing like the Houston St above the IND east of 6 Av? |
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| (1249802) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by gbs on Wed Sep 25 22:29:23 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 18:08:44 2013. Don't forget Union Av (Brooklyn), which was extended from Broadway to Flushing Av for the GG Crosstown route, which then continues onto Marcy Av. That section of Union Av is at an angle of about 45 degrees from the street grid, and created many awkward intersections. |
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| (1255058) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Asgard on Wed Oct 23 17:54:00 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Tony Clifton on Wed Sep 18 12:38:07 2013. It's due out November 1st, but I've seen a copy of it. There is a chapter on "Ashland Place and the Mysteries of 76th Street". Not sure if that's the exact chapter title.From a quick look, the book seems very good. |
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| (1255068) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Oct 23 19:09:49 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Asgard on Wed Oct 23 17:54:00 2013. thanks for mentioning, I am planning to get it. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 23 20:38:06 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 24 22:14:09 2013. LOL! |
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| (1255080) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 23 20:41:44 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Tony Clifton on Tue Sep 24 08:41:27 2013. You can shake it..break it..its all good.dont ruin another great thread. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 23 20:59:15 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Edwards! on Wed Sep 18 22:49:10 2013. Thanks for clearing up that one for me! |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 03:42:53 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by TunnelRat on Wed Oct 17 17:07:46 2007. Not according to my copy of the PSC 1913 annual report! |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 03:57:05 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Sep 9 11:13:00 2013. I always suspected that since the 95 St platform was being extended south when I was a M/M on the 4 Av Lcl and I never saw any surface disruption in the area. However, since the tunnel infrastructure is reputed to exist as far as 101 St, why didn't the MTA install track in those trackways at a minimum of expense so that they could have been used for layups instead of using the S/B 4 Av exp tk between 36 and 59 St? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 24 10:59:04 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 03:57:05 2013. probably because it makes sence and that doesn`t sit well with the t.a. |
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| (1255179) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 24 10:59:59 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 03:42:53 2013. what is that setback then? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Hart Bus on Thu Oct 24 17:42:43 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Sep 18 12:36:37 2013. I am taking a wait and see attitude about this book until I see some reviews about the content.I pre-ordered Ogden's book about the history of the Fifth Avenue Coach Company, only to be disappointed that he ended the book around 1960 and said nothing about the strike and NYC condemnation of the company and its routes in March 1962. I would think that such a major event should have been covered. I won't be fooled again and will wait before I sent them my $40 (including shipping to Suffolk County NY ) |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 18:23:44 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Thu Oct 24 10:59:59 2013. Probably just to place the upper level platform directly under the sidewalk in front of City Hall Park for the sake of entrance locations since it is so close to the surface. If the platform had been directly under Bway, the entrances would have had to be in the middle of the street. |
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| (1255247) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by P.Opus on Thu Oct 24 19:05:49 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Michael549 on Wed Oct 17 12:39:01 2007. Along the wall to the Tower Room is a plaque noting the original existence of Ely Beach's original pneumantic subway - the city's very first subway - well before the IRT - which this station replaced.There is? Pics? |
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| (1255248) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Oct 24 19:14:40 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Hart Bus on Thu Oct 24 17:42:43 2013. I would probably do thhe same if I had an experience like yours. |
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| (1255331) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by menJop on Fri Oct 25 03:31:31 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 24 18:23:44 2013. Could it be that the upper level was originally intended to be a loop? |
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| (1255425) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Oct 25 14:45:56 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Hart Bus on Thu Oct 24 17:42:43 2013. I am positive that the author has done considerable and credible research, and you won't be disappointed.--Mark |
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| (1255469) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 25 16:48:02 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by menJop on Fri Oct 25 03:31:31 2013. No. The upper level was intended to be a stub terminal ant the lower level was supposed to go through. |
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| (1255474) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 25 16:58:47 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by P.Opus on Thu Oct 24 19:05:49 2013. I haven`t seen this plaque.I will stand by my statement that the "cut in"is the original beach subway until,m proven wrong. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Oct 25 17:30:30 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 25 16:58:47 2013. According to the 1913 PSC annual report I have, the remains of the Beach subway were found by workers constructing the BMT in the area of City Hall, but that had no bearing on the route of the actual infrastructure. |
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| (1255490) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Oct 25 17:46:00 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 25 17:30:30 2013. I know that randy,i.ve seen the photos of the workers sitting in the car.the city KNEW of the subway so it was no surprise to the engineers when the workers broke thru the beach subway.now the workers on the other hand is a different story. |
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| (1255509) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Renee Gil on Fri Oct 25 20:57:25 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by menJop on Fri Oct 25 03:31:31 2013. there was supposed to be a loop between the manhattan bridge portal and the abandoned myrtle ave platform. |
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| (1255511) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 25 21:02:39 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Oct 25 14:45:56 2013. lets hope not...looking forward to reading it. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Oct 26 08:37:58 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Renee Gil on Fri Oct 25 20:57:25 2013. there is a loop there,I was in it. |
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| (1255566) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Oct 26 08:51:21 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Oct 26 08:37:58 2013. Where are the "abandon Myrtle Ave Platforms"?Where does the loop start, which direction does it proceed, and where does it return to? |
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| (1255569) | |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 26 09:10:13 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Oct 26 08:51:21 2013. Where are the "abandon Myrtle Ave Platforms"?The northbound Myrtle Avenue platform is still there. Just take a B or D from Dekalb Avenue and look to the left. The southbound platform was destroyed during the Dekalb Avenue reconstruction. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1255573) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Oct 26 09:51:20 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 26 09:10:13 2013. Oh, yes, now I remember it now. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Oct 26 09:54:06 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Oct 26 08:37:58 2013. Did this loop allow trains to remain in Brooklyn?Did the loop go above or below the main lines? |
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| (1255575) | |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Oct 26 10:55:02 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Oct 26 09:54:06 2013. Link. Scroll to the map about 1/4 down the page. You can see part of the loop as dotted lines. Since the bridge tracks are on a steep upgrade at that point, the loop, which would have allowed trains to remain in Brooklyn, would have been below the bridge tracks. |
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| (1264699) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 05:46:32 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Thu Sep 12 14:14:55 2013. Sorry for necroposting, but while catching the Holiday train at 2nd Ave I got a better look at the 2nd Ave/Houston St station at the 2nd Ave end, from the street entrance to the platform. While doing an approximate measurement of where the underground structures are relative to the street above, I noticed some interesting details.1) The beams supporting the low ceiling at the 2nd ave end of the station are different from the beams supporting the low ceilings everywhere else in the station. Everywhere else, the beams are perpendicular to the tracks, but at the 2nd Ave end, the beams are mostly parallel except for some crossbeams. In fact, the distance between those crossbeams are about the width of a trackway. If you assume those are provisions for the trackways for the SAS, it would make for 2 pairs of tracks with a single platform in the middle and possibly 2 side platforms (like 34th St 7th Ave and 8th Ave). The space for the center platform did look kind of narrow though. 2) That bit of low ceiling at the 2nd Ave end is right underneath 2nd Ave, based on my estimates, right where you would put the tracks for the SAS. The raised ceiling, OTOH, would be under the sidewalk or even further. 3) It looks like there used to be stairs that went from that center platform provision to the F platforms. I can't tell if the stairs did a 90-degree turn on the way up or if they went straight. Knowing that would tell whether the stairs (if they were ever there) were part of the SAS provision, or if they were added afterwards. All this brought up another question: assuming the low ceiling is where the tracks for the SAS is supposed to go, does this mean that the high ceiling was supposed to be the underside of the uptown "local" platform? It's pretty wide for that, and maybe a bit high. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Dec 17 11:25:21 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 05:46:32 2013. The high end of the station is the shell of the IND Second System that was never built because of the Depression. Unlike South 4th a Street, which did see a considerable amount of construction done, the high end of 2 Ave is more like a provision for a future station (to be called Houston Street IIRC). |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 13:25:38 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Dec 17 11:25:21 2013. No, I don't think the part of 2nd Ave with the high ceiling is the provision for the SAS (or at least not the track portion). For one, believe it or not, the ceiling isn't high enough. They would literally have to carve out quite a bit more of the ceiling to fit another subway in. If it was meant to be an unbuilt provision, it would have made more sense to leave the whole space empty, or at least put in just the support beams. Second, like I mentioned in my post, the high ceiling is not under the center of 2nd Ave, it's actually to the east of it. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue Dec 17 13:35:48 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 13:25:38 2013. BELIEVE HIM,I,M THE FIRST ONE ON THIS BOARD THAT WAS IN IT AND POSTED ON IT SEVERAL TIMES. |
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| (1264773) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 14:58:43 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue Dec 17 13:35:48 2013. Believe who, Mitch45 or me? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Dec 17 17:39:08 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 13:25:38 2013. It's not the provision for the SAS. It's the provision for the Houston Street station of the unbuilt IND Second System. |
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| (1264799) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 18:24:17 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Dec 17 17:39:08 2013. Be that as it may, it doesn't fit as the location for a 2nd Ave line. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Dec 17 23:29:23 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Tue Dec 17 14:58:43 2013. Mitch45. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Dec 18 03:16:09 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Tue Dec 17 23:29:23 2013. Looks like I'm not the first one to mention it, as 2 other people made the same claim in the past. See this thread. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun May 4 07:46:29 2014, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. Quite a comprehensive list. One thing that jumped out at me was your statement that unused tunnels or trackways north of 57th St./7th Ave. extend for "500 ft or so". That would mean they reach to 59th St., or close to it, which I strongly doubt. Could it really reach to within a few feet of the IND Columbus Circle station? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun May 4 16:27:14 2014, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun May 4 07:46:29 2014. Maybe not that close to 59 St since the 57/7 station extends south from 57 St. It definitely would not have reached to anywhere near the IND Columbus Circle station since that is a long city block away from 7 Av even through it was intended to eventually connect to a CPW subway in the event the BMT were to get it. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun May 4 18:36:47 2014, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun May 4 07:46:29 2014. North of the 57th Street-Seventh Avenue station platforms prior to the 1970's had a set of express tracks that extended north of the station's platforms. I have been told that these tracks extend 500-feet the 57th Street station. These tracks could not hold a full length train, but also had a set of cross-over switches.A pair of local tracks that were also intended to follow these express tracks were probably not built, put in their place at some point were closed storage places. The entire set of tracks (both local and express) turned ever so gently in the path of Central Park West. These express tracks can be seen while riding any of the N, Q, R trains that travel to or from the Lexington Avenue station at 60th Street, upon entering or exiting the 57th Street, these express rise to a higher level. In any case, these express tracks were in the 1970's or 1980's connected to the 63rd Street tunnel, that is slated for usage by the Q-train to 96th Street. Mike |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Norwood205th on Thu Apr 14 16:14:11 2016, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. Has anybody who's seen the end of the relays past 179th know why the bumpers need a wooden partition around them? |
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