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| Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs (1264346) | |
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| (1264346) | |
Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 08:33:43 2013 Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last RunsAt 12:01 AM the first train of Steinway motor cars was placed in service on the 3rd Avenue El in The Bronx. The consist was composed of 4757,5642,4700,4716,5638,4768. December 15, 1956 was a Saturday so it would seems that the entire fleet of about eleven trains was replaced in one day. This would not have been difficult as on a Saturday only about four train-sets were needed to cover the service. The last train of IRT “elevated” cars consisted of MUDC motor cars;. 1795,1793,1754,1778,1761,1780. ERA Headlights Jan 1957 If anyone has more detailed information on this changeover please let me know |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by murray1575 on Sun Dec 15 08:36:39 2013, in response to Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 08:33:43 2013. That is an interesting note. How did the TA handle the difference in third rail shoes between the elevated cars and the steel subway cars which replaced them? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 13:16:15 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by murray1575 on Sun Dec 15 08:36:39 2013. How did the TA handle the difference in third rail shoes between the elevated cars and the steel subway cars which replaced them?Murray: The IRT had several locations were there were joint subway-el operations. I believe that the el cars had a third rail shoe that could make contact with both types of third rail. I would like to say that at some point after the 3rd Avenue Line was abandoned south of 149th Street the remaining portion was converted to subway type third rail. I can't be sure of this without backing through the files. If no one answers your question I'll get back to you in a day or so with an answer. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Dec 15 13:21:37 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 13:16:15 2013. at certain locations they had both subway and elevated 3rd rail,one on one side of the track and one on the other.the polo grounds shuttle was one that comes to mind.EL 3rd rail into the Jerome ave yard with dedicated track for this. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Dec 15 13:28:24 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 13:16:15 2013. I would imagine the line had subway third rail because the cars had to access the WP line to get maintained at 239YD. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 15 13:47:10 2013, in response to Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 08:33:43 2013. I guess that everyone forgot about the 6th ave subway opening on Dec 15th, 1940??? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Dec 15 14:26:16 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 15 13:47:10 2013. yeah. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 14:29:33 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 15 13:47:10 2013. I guess that everyone forgot about the 6th ave subway opening on Dec 15th, 1940???Didn't forget but I am only up to 1988 in current events. Once I get finished with that I will go back and start doing historical openings and closings. But our good friend Mr.Willaim Padron had already made note of the event. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Dec 15 14:58:13 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Dec 15 13:28:24 2013. For some reason the IRT had dual subway and elevated 3rd rail in many locations even though the BMT was able to get by with elevated 3rd rail on portions with dual operation. The BMT 3rd rail shoes just rode a bit higher on el type 3rd rail. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Dec 15 15:00:28 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 15 13:47:10 2013. There is a thread on that. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 15 16:28:40 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 13:16:15 2013. In 1900, 3 years before being leased by the IRT, the Manhattan Elevated Railway decided to use their version of open type third rail. They even had a patented drop- sled type contact shoe to run on it. Thus, most of the IRT Bronx routes had dual third rail. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 15 21:59:19 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by murray1575 on Sun Dec 15 08:36:39 2013. Hello ALL: --I wrote extensively a numnber of messages some years ago here with explicit details of the 3 types of IRT Third Rail styles. Likely that message is long gone. Regarding the 3rd Ave EL, I rode and photographed extensively, both the Manhattan & Bronx portions. The Manhattan and Bronx portions PRIOR TO May 12, 1955, always had the original "Manhattan EL Style" 3rd rail, which was higher and was closer to the Track than IRT Subway Style Covered 3rd rail. That IRT EL STYLE 3rd Rail had a wooden protector board at the catwalk-facing-side of 3rd rail, and the TOP edge of this protector board was about 1 3/4 inches HIGHER than the top of the 3rd rail head. It was bolted with insulator blocks, to the sides of the 3rd rail ! On lines where the IRT WOOD EL Trains and IRT Steel subway cars shared the same ELEVATED TRACKS and EL ROUTES, in the Bronx, and on the then (until end of 1949) IRT operated Queens Flushing and Astoria Line EL lines, the IRT EL STYLE 3rd rail DID NOT HAVE the catwalk-side facing wooden protector board...thus being the 2nd style of 3rd rail used. This was because the IRT STEEL subway cars always had subway PADDLE type 3rd Rail Shoes designed for use on (the third IRT style 3rd rail) covered IRT SUBWAY style 3rd rails. However, these paddle shoes at that time were specially shaped (contoured as such) and truck-positioned so the middle portion of the paddle shoe could ride flat on the closer, higher IRT EL STYLE 3rd rail surface. However, the wooden catwalk-side facing protector board, being higher than the 3rd rail head, would have fouled and lifted the paddle shoes OFF the 3rd rail ! BMT EL Gate and later Q TYPE EL Cars that back then ran as shuttles on the then-IRT Flushing and Astoria ELS, were ALL fitted with SUBWAY STYLE Paddle Shoes, of the general design used by IRT steel SUBWAY Cars. Only the IRT 2nd Ave EL TRAINS running on those two Queens EL routes used the IRT "Drop Sled" EL style 3rd rail shoes on and contacted ONLY the IRT EL Style open 3rd rails on those two EL routes. The other trains fitted with Paddle shoes, contacted BOTH types of 3rd rail simultaneously when operating along tracks having both types of 3rd rails along each track ! OK - NOW - back to the BRONX 3rd Ave El. The Manhattan and Bronx 3rd Ave EL in its entirety, (as did 2nd, 6th and 9th Ave EL's) had the original IRT EL STYLE 3rd rail with the catwalk-facing-side wood protector board. This was TO PREVENT any steel IRT SUBWAY trains from operating on the, specifically, Manhattan Elevated structure portions, which could not hold their "Gross loaded vehicle weight (ie: with passengers) After May 12, 1955, -- up until fall in 1956, the BRONX surviving portion of the 3rd Ave EL still retained its wooden safety backboard at the catwalk-facing side of its EL STYLE 3rd rails. As the IRT MUDC's and Q Type Cars still continued to operate with their DROP SLED 3rd rail SHOES. Note: The BMT Q-Type consists, when transferred from Queens to the IRT 3rd Ave EL for center-track EXPRESS ONLY service in April-May 1950, still had their original BMT Peckham MOTOR and Trailer Trucks (on the A and C "Motor" Q-Type Cars only) also still having their subway type paddle shoes. Those trucks were replaced by the IRT with former IRT Composite Car trucks, which had already decades earlier been fitted with IRT EL DROP SLED Shoes on them as used previously for decades by the composites in 2nd and 3rd Ave EL Express Service. (the Q Type "B" middle trailer cars retained and kept their shoe-less original BMT Peckham Trailer trucks) When the NYCTA decided to replace the MUDC and Q-Type WOOD EL cars on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL, with surplus steel Steinway ALL-Motor Cars, track crews some time around Sept-Oct 1956, started removing the WOODEN safety backboards from the EL STYLE 3rd Rails on BOTH local tracks ONLY on the surviving Bronx 3rd Ave EL. THIS was so that the Steel Steinway cars, fresh from Subway Route services, could more quickly be placed on the EL by December 1956. The unused (but still "live") center EXPRESS tracks from above 149th St thru to near (west of) Gun Hill Road interlocking, still RETAINED their wooden side-protector board on the EL Style 3rd Rail. This because THAT track was solely to be used after Dec. 1956 to store the wood EL Q-Type EL cars with their DROP SLED SHOES - and also due to the plan to "fully deactivate" the center tracks by early 1958 and dismantle most portions (rails, etc) of it....as was done between 1959 thru 1965 incrementally. The EL Style 3rd Rail on the center, as abandoned,express tracks was itself, quickly then removed first, and all gone by early 1959 !ALong with all un=needed express track signals and hardware. So, the Steinways (SEE PHOTO ATTACHED) ran from Dec. 15, 1956 thru late 1957, with their subway paddle shoes riding on IRT EL STYLE 3rd Rail -- WITHOUT the backboards which just over 3 months prior, were all removed to facilitate this operation on a temporary measue.  Note in this late 1957 photo, view north from the E.169th Street EL northbound station, a southbound STEINWAY TRAIN consist with their SUBWAY PADDLE SHOES riding upon the IRT EL STYLE open 3rd rail BUT with the catwalk-side-facing wood protector board removed. NOTE the center "now non-revenue" express track, with stored (30 sets of 3-cars each) Q TYPE's - waiting to go, in small groups over time, to CI Yards to be overhauled to go in to BMT Myrtle EL Service by May 1958 -- still HAS its wood safety board on the side of its EL Style 3rd Rail ! By late 1957 thru early 1958, the track crews started installing SUBWAY STYLE covered third rails along both local tracks, generally along the opposite side of each track across from where the exisiting open EL style 3rd rail was still being used. As many blocks-long sections of subway Style Covered 3rd rail were installed and activated, in increments, the now un-needed EL style 3rd rail was "de-energized and removed at that same time, on the opposite side of the local tracks. By mid 1958, this process was completed --all under regular train operation. Riding the EL frequently then, I recall seeing this 3rd rail changeover ongoing ! A work train using a few flats and by then very few sole remaining MUDC's using the center express track, handled the materials for this ongoing 3rd rail changeover. So, some useful history and this should answer the poster's question with facts. Regards - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Dec 15 22:07:19 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 14:29:33 2013. Has it really been 73 years since the 6th Ave. line opened? According to my service announcement, D trains initially ran to Hudson Terminal 24/7. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Dec 15 23:06:48 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 15 21:59:19 2013. GREAT POST JOE,LONG TIME SINCE I,VE HEARD FROM YOU. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by CJ on Mon Dec 16 00:57:27 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 15 21:59:19 2013. Great post. Thanks for sharing the information about the IRT third rail lines. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 01:20:39 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 15 21:59:19 2013. Since it is obvious that IRT subway shoes could be used on the unprotected el type of 3rd rail, why did the IRT go to the expense of installing 2 types of 3rd rail instead of just el type rail on portions with joint operation as the BMT did? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 01:22:45 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Dec 15 22:07:19 2013. That's correct. In 1954 when the IND took over the Culver, the F was routed to Bway/Laf and the D to Coney in order to provide Bronx passengers with a one seat ride to Coney Is. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Dec 16 05:34:39 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by CJ on Mon Dec 16 00:57:27 2013. A+ on da 3rd rail irt post.chud1. :).... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 16 05:38:19 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 15 21:59:19 2013. Joe: A well researched post with a wealth of information. This time I'm going to save it for reference. Thank you for posting it.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 05:58:26 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 01:20:39 2013. Hello Rando !Well, the IRT was very frugal as we know - and the BMT was more progressive. By necessity, this recitation unfortunately is going to be a bit lengthy ! The IRT had two basic types of pre war era fleets. As we know. The STEEL subway cars of various High V and Low-V Classes, and the wooden ELEVATED DIVIION (aka Manhattan Railway Co. Div.) cars - Gates and MUDC's, including the ex-first wooden Subway Composite Cars transferred (as banned by law from subway revenue use by 1912-13 as fire hazzards) to the IRT 2nd & 3rd Ave El's for fleet expansion for it's new center-tracked express services in 1915-16. NOTE: The Composites were still heavy to run in revenue (loaded) in express track service on the 9th Ave EL because many parts of its EL columns and structure below W. 60th street to Battery Park, still retained many parts of the, if only "marginally strengthened" steelwork for gate & MUDC car only use, earliest 1876-7 to 1880 steelwork. So they never revenue-ran on that line, nor on the 6th Ave EL which was only a 2-track line for most of its mainline. (A) - The STEEL IRT subway cars were too heavy to run revenue service on the 4 Manhattan EL's, regardless of whether they were fitted and operated with either DROP SLED or Paddle 3rd rail shoes. (B) -- Some IRT Bronx EL Lines --- ie: Woodlawn-Jerome line with 9th Ave EL train connection operations - and West Farms / White Plains Rd EL routes using 2nd Ave EL and later (after June 1940 thru 1946) 3rd Ave EL routed trains (via first, the original 150th St Westchester Ave, and later Bergen Ave. Cutoff connections), and of course, both the IRT operated Queens Flushing & Astoria EL routes (to end of 1949) -- all shared both IRT Wood el cars and IRT Steel Subway Car consists. Therefore, those EL Lines ALL HAD to have both types of 3rd rails. (C) There were quite a number of "very tight clearance" problems at track level at various Manhattan Elevated stations and structure work where subway-positioned (lower but mainly FURTHER from the track) covered Third Rails could not be installed. And including the famed 1916-7 built Anderson Ave-Sedgwick Av E.162nd St TUNNEL connecting the 9th Ave El to the Jerome Ave IRT EL. THATS WHY the Manhattan EL wooden fleets retained, and had to so, their original DROP SLED El-Style 3rd Rail shoes to the end. (D) - per (C) re: what became the Polo Grounds Shuttle route after the mid June 1940 closing of 9th Ave El mainlne below W.155th St Station (aka Polo Grounds Station)- some IRT Wood EL trains (MUDC's and some Composites) were retained on the shuttle being as they had EL Style 3rd Rail DROP SLED SHOES which could clear that tunnel. As some of us know, when by 1950, IRT steel subway cars replaced the wood cars on the shuttle (Hi-V's first for a year or so, and later Low-V's until the end in Aug. 1958) - they FIRST had to have the outer ends of their subway paddle shoes CUT BACK shorter, so that only the remaining center shoe-portions were remaining and could ride on the EL style 3rd rails (and clear the side wood protector boards) - SPECIFICALLY and solely more so as to clear the E.162nd Street tunnel walls which were very close (about 2 inches) to the EL STYLE 3rd rails. So these cars also had to use the EL STYLE 3rd rails retained (BUT WITHOUT the wooden back boards) on the Woodlawn-Jerome EL as their shortened paddles could NOT contact the subway style covered third rails on that line. HOWEVER, the 2 Tracks on the shuttle portion itself along the E.162nd Street Trestle - and thru the tunnel, and over the Harlem River Birdge to W.155St Terminal Station, still had the "Manhattan" style El 3rd Rails WITH their catwalk-side-facing wood protector boards, right to the end of service in Aug. 1958 !!! (D) -- The BMT "Comnpany" being much more progressive, developed small fleets of 3 types of lightweight metal constructed 10' wide articulated consist units (the ZEPHYR, Green Hornets and Bluebirds) -so as to be light enough to run on the old Fulton St EL, whose wooden station platforms were cut back to clear those newer fleets, and still be allowed to operate in any subway line tunnels in revenue service. Also, the BMT refitted many wood EL Gate cars in the mid 1940's with subway type paddle shoes to run as shuttle-extras on some BMT EL lines - ie: one being, and mainly thus, the BMT West End EL, when BMT steel cars (the Standards, D Types, etc,) replaced full-route-operation EL gate cars on those lines. As the BMT West END line EL became a full subway train thru route, it received Subway style and positioned covered 3rd rails. Which is why those BMT EL Gate Car shuttles HAD to be fitted with subway paddles shoes to operate as suttles on that portion of the EL line. Those so-assigned EL gate cars had white paint applied to their open end platform front edges to so designate them as "Subway Shoe" EL cars. The entire BMT Fulton St EL, BMT 5th and BMT 3rd Ave EL's, Myrtle & Lexington Avenue EL's, has older EL STYLE 3rd Rails, and BMT Culver El did UNTIL the IND Took it over in 1954, of the old earlier "narrow rail profile" type, to their very ends, but NEVER EVER with the IRT Style wooden catwalk-facing side protector boards ! Thus fully unprotected ! These lines ran solely with older gate cars with EL TYPE DROP SLED SHOES. EXCEPT for Culver, which shared its route alternately both with BMT Steels having paddle shoes, and Drop Sled Shoe Wooden EL cars BEFORE the IND started service on the Culkver EL. And the Fulton St EL as well ran with Subway-EL designed "lightweight articulated units" and wooden EL Car C TYPES both having paddle shoes used mainly for and on the Fulton Street EL...along with interspersed drop-sled-shoe fitted BMT EL Gate Car "extra" consists. The BMT Broadway and Jamaica EL's had EL STYLE 3rd rails, first the older narrow profile rails, and later in the late 1940's approx. replaced with a heavier "fatter" head profile rail for both EL CAR DROP SLED and Subway Car Paddle shoe operated cars. The Lexington Avenue EL still connected and ran on a portion of that Broadway BMT EL until Nov. 1950 when Lex EL terminated service. The BMT Myrtle Ave. EL Q Types received paddle shoes in the approx. 1964-65 period. However, near the end of Myrtle thru operation, the upper Myrtle EL above B'way Jct Station, pre-planned to continue with thru steel subway trains after Oct. 1969, was converted to subway style covered 3rd Rail - but the older lower portion of Myrtle retained the older EL Style 3rd Rail, due to certain clearance problems related to preventing installation of subway positioned covered third rail. And thusly so for the same reasons outlined in my IRT Manhattan EL details way above, - some parts of the structure and station structures at track level could not clear subway position coverboard fitted 3rd rails on the older 1880's built older parts of the Fulton El, and the entire BMT 3rd, 5th, Myrtle and Lexington Ave EL's. By the time in the mid 60's that the Myrtle Avenue Q Types Q's were all finally fitted with subway paddle shoes, all the other then remaining BMT EL lines finally, over time, had their uncovered EL Style and positioned third rails, gradually relocated to, replaced with, subway position "paddle shoe only" operated covered third rails. By that time, (especially since the removal in May 1958 of 1300 series BMT EL Gate Cars from the Myrtle Ave El, as the last of their Gate Car type operating with EL TYPE DROP SLED SHOES) - there was no longer a need for uncovered, unprotected 3rd rails anywhere on the BMT system trackages, nor to be as so needed to be located in the closer and higher EL STYLE use and position along the tracks. Well, its a lot of history, and I could continue expanding on with much more, but that is not necessary at this point. I believe I answered your question, Randy, per why the IRT used dual 3rd rails, and HAD to, and the BMT, being more, ummmm, progressive, effected a way to use a single third rail method for both EL Car Drop-Sled shoe types, and Subway Paddle shoe types. Regards - Joe F . |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 06:03:01 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 16 05:38:19 2013. Hello Larry (R33)Well, I very rarely post here, and thanks very much for the nice comments. I only post here when I have something I feel is truly worthwhile and useful to offer, basically...for the benefit of those who as such may be truly interested. Regards - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 16 06:43:57 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 13:16:15 2013. There were definitely some modernizations on the Bronx portion of the El. While I wasn't around back then, pictures from 1956 or so show semaphore signals on the Gun Hill Road portion (between 210th and Gun Hill Rd), while later pictures show IRT-style homeballs.So I'm sure other modifications could have been made as well. Maybe between 5/12/55 and 12/16/56, the third rail was changed to the subway type- and as you said, since the El cars could handle both types, there was no problem during the changeover period? That would be my guess. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 16 06:46:04 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Dec 15 16:28:40 2013. I guess that explains it... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 16 06:57:12 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 15 21:59:19 2013. Thanks. They did all that work- only to demolish the whole thing a few years later... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 16 07:06:28 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 05:58:26 2013. Thank you, Joe. Obviously, this is something you know very well. I've learned a lot this morning, before my workday has even started. Be well. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Dec 16 10:44:38 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Dec 15 21:59:19 2013. Many thanks for that detailed information. Here's another look at those angled (contoured) third rail shoes on a Worlds Fair Steinway car at 74 St: (from nycsubway.org) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by BMT Standard on Mon Dec 16 11:02:45 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 01:22:45 2013. In addition, in 1954 the F was running 11 car trains, and the stations south of Church Ave. were only extended long enough for 10 car trains. |
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| (1264532) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by BMT Standard on Mon Dec 16 11:11:07 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 05:58:26 2013. The Brighton line also had uncovered third rail south of Prospect Park, along with the Franklin shuttle, until the late 1950s. |
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| (1264569) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 14:46:27 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Dec 16 06:43:57 2013. Actually, it was the subway cars that could handle both types since subway 3rd rail was lower and farther away from the running rail than el 3rd rail. As I mentioned in another post, the BMT made out rather well using only el type 3rd rail in areas that were shared by both subway and el trains. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 15:03:49 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 05:58:26 2013. That really still doesn't answer the question as to why the IRT "had to have" both types of 3rd rails. As with the BMT, subway paddle type 3rd rail shoes can make contact with the higher and closer el type 3rd rail as long as there is no side protection board. I distinctly remember seeing Lo-vs on the Wh Pl Rd line with the subway shoes riding on and making contact with the el type 3rd rail that was still there for a brief period after the Steinways replaced MUDCs on the 3 Av el. Since subway paddle shoes can work with both types of 3rd rail, whereas drop style shoes would not be able to make contact with subway type 3rd rail which even if uncovered was mounted lower and farther away form the running rails installation of el type completely uncovered 3rd rail should have been sufficient for the IRT as it was for the BMT. By the way, as late as 1966, when I started with the TA, ENY, Canarsie and FP yds still had open el type 3rd rail even though their respective main lines did not. Also the unique trusswork at the station entrances between Bway and Bridge St required special runners to lift the paddle type shoes high enough to clear the girders and since these were made of wood and not actual 3rd rails, they were functionally 3rd rail gaps and each car lost power over them as a result. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 15:10:44 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by VictorM on Mon Dec 16 10:44:38 2013. As you can plainly see from the photo, subway type 3rd rail shoes can a d did make contact with the el type 3rd rail therefore there was no need for the iRT to go to the expense of installing an additional subway type 3rd rail when a single el type 3rd rail would do. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 15:13:56 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by BMT Standard on Mon Dec 16 11:02:45 2013. Which is surprising since most of the original IND platforms were designed for 11cars, although the stations S/O ENY were only 1o cars long. However, even though the platforms on the Culver could only hold 10 cars, 11car trains could have run there since at the time there were 2 C/Rs so the rear guard could easily have kept the 11th car closed at those stations. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Dec 16 15:54:16 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 15:13:56 2013. Were the platforms on the Culver line extended to 10 cars but not 11 cars, for the IND change over, or were they 10 cars before the change over and would have needed extension to handle 11 cars. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Dec 16 16:37:07 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Dec 16 15:54:16 2013. They were extended from 8 car BMT to 10 car IND. If you stand on most of the platforms along McDonald Ave and look across to the base of the opposite ones, you can see the additions. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 21:34:19 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Mon Dec 16 15:03:49 2013. Hello again Randyo --Re-READ my earlier reply to you. The ANSWER IS in there. The IRT Manhattan Division retained their DROP SLED SHOE and EL Style third rail format -- and here are more specific reasons --- (a) to prevent Wooden EL trains from errantly being operated into IRT Subway Tunnels (on lines where the "EL" Trains shared Elevated Line trackage with Subway Trains. The Elevated Car roofs were about one foot higher than subway car roofs. (b) to prevent Steel, heavier IRT Subway trains from errantly being revenue-operated onto Manhattan IRT "EL" Division lighter structures of the 2nd, 3rd 6th and 9th Ave EL's. Per (a) - here is a recorded IRT incident I have in my "INTERBOROUGH Files" ,from back in the late 1920's. whereupon a Manhattan Bound IRT 2nd Ave EL bound train of MUDC EL Cars, was operating as a local southbound (west facing) on the Bronx IRT West Farms (Westchester Ave segment) EL - southbound from the Jackson Ave Elevated Station. And for some reason, at the Bergen Ave. Junction lineup, where the EL TRAIN ROUTING tracks switched left, inward, and then straight ahead again and ramped on an UPWARD GRADE towards Bergen ramp and EL ROUTE Junction, the Towerman improperly set the lineup at the Bergen Cut Junction, for the outer (and presently now remaining) DOWN GRADE track used SOLELY by and for IRT Manhattan bound subway trains to enter the E.149th Street Tunnel Portal. For an unknown reason, the EL train Motorman kept his EL train moving over the improperly route-set switch track, and headed downgrade towards the left turning curve UNDER the above crossing EL ROUTE Tracks, and down towards the Tunnel Portal. Well, per the facts I presented about the dual 3rd rails on the IRT, and WHY they were implemented and retained, the 6 Car wooden EL southbound 2nd Ave EL bound Train, after it veered to the right and over and beyond the improperly routed switch track, continued again then straight ahead to the immediate point at which point the EL Style 3rd Rail ended, and only the covered subway style third rail was on the opposite side of the subway-bound southbound descending track. Consequently, as each MOTOR car of the EL TRAIN proceeded past the switch, their 3rd rail Drop-Sled shoes dropped off into open space. As the train was HI-V Control (as most of the IRT EL car fleet were) --- the 600 Volt BUSS Jumnpers Cables between the EL cars continued to keep the traction motors alive on the entire EL train UNTIL the last two Drop Sled shoes on the two trucks of the REAR car, dropped into open space. At THAT POINT, the train finally lost all power completely. The motorman, now realizing "something was wrong (heh!)", applied his air brakes..and stopped the train. And stopping only about 8 or so car lengths FROM the tunnel portal itself ! The EL Motorman's error was that he wasn't reading his "iron" and signals for an improper lineup, or was distracted, or new and unfamiliar to and on the route, whatever. The Towerman, then realized HIS OWN error, and communications were made between he, the EL train crew, and IRT dispatchers, to have a following southbound local train couple up to the "dead" Elevated train, and tow it back (eastward) past the junction switch, and fully back on to the Dual 3rd Rail trackage portion of the SB Local track. The switch was then set for the Upper Level Bergen Cut SB track alignment, and the EL Train, after that long delay, continued on its proper route on the UP GRADE ramp track to Bergen Cut EL ROUTING branch, and without further event, towards the 3rd Ave EL junction connection at the E.143rd St double-deck EL Station, and southward towards Manhattan and the 2nd Ave EL. It is TRUE - as you likely are attempting to present, that the IRT "could" have gotten by with solely EL STYLE (and no side wooden protector board of course) third rail on those Bronx and Queens EL Lines having tracks sharing both steel subway and Wood "Manhattan Division" EL Trains, and dispensed with the additional covered subway third rail on the opposite side of each track. However, had that been the case, that errant Bergen Cut EL train would have headed UNDER POWER into the E.149th Street tunnel with disasterous (major roof damage to cars at the least) results ! So in the case of DUAL - or NOT - 3rd Rails, having the dual rails on the IRT in that incident, and likely per other similar incidents, prevented the EL train from running where it should NOT. And additionally, having the higher wooden backboard on all EL Style Third Rails where ONLY Manhattan EL ROUTE bound IRT EL trains with drop sled 3rd rail shoes could operate, prevented any subway trains with paddle shoes for entering trackage meant only for Manhattan Division wooden EL Trains. THEIR 3rd rail paddle shoes would have been lifted UP off the EL style 3rd rail by the higher protector side board. The IRT controlled (until late 1949) Flushing and Astoria EL's also used DUAL (subway and EL style) 3rd rails on each track. The EL Style 3rd rails there, also being WITHOUT the side wood protector board, of course ! However, the EXCEPTION there being at the huge dual-level Queensboro Plaza EL Station on the BMT half (North Side). Those tracks ONLY had one 3rd rail, the covered subway style and positioned type 3rd rail, from the BMT North Half SIDE station platforms in and out from both upper and lower level trackage to the points where those outbound tracks merged with the Astoria and Flushing EL Main line tracks, at that point where BMT EL "Shuttle" Trains, IRT EL through Trains and IRT Subway through Trains, operated jointly. That was because the ONLY trains using that northerly BMT SIDE station and approach trackages from the two mainline EL's, were BMT Standards and BMT EL GATE and Q Types, ALL of which had subway type PADDLE shoes. The UNCOVERED EL style 3rd rail (WITHOUT the wooden side protector board, again, of course) then being used and needed fully on the Flushing and Astoria joint BMT and IRT services mainlines EL tracks, ONLY for the use of the IRT 2nd Ave EL Train (with their DROP SLED shoes) services on those 2 routes. On the original BRT and post-1918 BMT System, many of the older built Tunnels (during wooden EL Gate Car original era operations only), were built to clear BMT EL CAR higher roofs. But the ONLY tunnel built to clear an IRT EL CAR higher roof, was the E.162nd St Sedgwick-Anderson Ave short tunnel, which was built and designed to be serviced ONLY by IRT 6th and 9th Ave EL Wooden Elevated Trains from Manhattan to the Bronx and connect to the IRT Jerome Ave EL. So the BMT (or earlier BRT) had more choices to run both steel and wood cars on many of the same routes, including those with early built tunnels, where and as needed, and use ONE type of 3rd rail, specifically the closer and higher EL style earlier 3rd rail. So there rests the case of WHY the IRT chose to use dual 3rd rails, even tho in logic, as I stated, the IRT, yes, could have gotten away with using solely EL Style uncovered 3rd rails on their Bronx and Queens joint subway and EL train route services. But the IRT chose NOT to, as described, period ! Well, Randyo, I hope this satisfies your questions somewhat ! post Regards - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Dec 16 23:49:10 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 21:34:19 2013. cool! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 16 23:52:00 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Dec 16 23:49:10 2013. I've known Joe for a long time ... he's a real good guy and SERIOUSLY knows his stuff. Ever see his model work? O gauge? All scratch-built? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Dec 16 23:59:50 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 16 23:52:00 2013. caught a pic once..really neat..makes my little one track loop look like pikersville. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 00:05:51 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Edwards! on Mon Dec 16 23:59:50 2013. Here ya go ... BEHOLD! :)This is gonna impress the hell outta ya! http://www.wtv-zone.com/NYCityModelTransitSystem/NYCityModelTransit/index.html He built just about ALL of it himself! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 17 00:26:53 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Dec 16 21:34:19 2013. The type of 3rd rails on the respective sections of the IRT has absolutely NOTHING to do with where subway and el trains were supposed to be rerouted. The BMT had similar problems on the Fulton St el regarding barring heavyweight steel cars from the unrebuilt portions of Fulton and even an occasional misroute of an oversized steel train to the upper level at Bway/Myrtle. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 17 00:51:56 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 00:05:51 2013. wow...i love it. can i have one? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 00:52:24 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 17 00:51:56 2013. Ask nice. :) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by CJ on Tue Dec 17 00:54:02 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 17 00:05:51 2013. I saw his model work on Flickr. Man was I impressed. That is excellent work there. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 01:11:06 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Randyo on Tue Dec 17 00:26:53 2013. Hello again Rando --Well, I gave you the information from my files - and for you who doesn't have nor provide any opposing facts or answers, you certainly are stating an unsubstantiated negative ("absolutely NOTHING") that you can't or won't substantiate to disprove !! By the way, the IRT Manhattan Railway Co. "Division" and the Interborough Subways were two separate legal entities under the Interborough consolidated operations. Both for equipment, crews, union and seniority matters between both "entities". My (late) father worked for the "Manhattan Railway Division" of the IRT, by the way, in the 1930's-40's ! After a short stint as a EL Station agent, and later as a Station master, he went into a Management position working out of the company offices located at the E.99th St EL Yards of the 3rd Ave EL. So I got plenty of internal and tech data info from him thru the decades. Sorry if you want to disagree, heh ! You can believe what you want to, Randyo...your choice ! Regardless of what you think, the IRT did it how their engineering and power distribution staff wanted to, and the BMT did their own engineering thing. How or why they did, or did not, is really moot at this late time in history, heh ! Also, the IRT EL Lines built as IRT subway line expansion extensions under DUAL Ccontracts for the IRT, were built for subway cars using paddle shoes. The IRT West Farms EL Line, however, was service-initiated initially for some time by Manhattan Railway "Division" Wooden EL Trains and crews BEFORE the subway trains began to run on it. Thus it was fitted with EL Style 3rd rails initially for Elevated trains, and later subway style duplicate Covered 3rd rails for subway trains later. And that process continued for the Jerome Line, for the 9th Ave El 1917-18 connections, and both IRT Queens EL's, period. regards - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 01:47:26 2013, in response to Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 15 08:33:43 2013. Hello Kevin ( MOOooo ! )(and Tunnel Rat) Well, Kevin, thanks for the nice words and such - yeah, we go back a ways by now, heh. And since you brought the subject up -- here are a few model goodies just for you - I know you (and Tunnel Rat !) will recognize the equipment and perhaps see a bit of a Bronx look to them. Please keep a towel over your keyboard if needed. This is a location on just a tiny portion of my rather huge O-Scale EL and Trolley system. Yes, the trolleys are powered by the overhead wire.         If you want more, perhaps some color ones - I'll provide some under El shots for you Kevin. Regards ! - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 17 02:03:58 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 01:47:26 2013. i like... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 02:57:12 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 01:47:26 2013. Hello again Kevin and ALLWell, Kevin, here are a few more scenes -with two shot under the EL under a center island platform EL station. You recognize the vehicles and rolling stock I am sure. Sone station platform scenes also on just one of my various other EL Stations. For you and anyone else who may be interested, here is the URL to my OTHER Layout Photos Webpage, displayed in Photo Album Sets on FLICKR. Each set has a subject caption based on whats in that set of photos. http://www.flickr.com/photos/44268069@N00/sets HOWEVER, a cloned "independent" webpage version of the above FLICKR site, which is much faster and easier to work thru than the Yahoo-controlled clunky-loading and maneuvering FLICKR SITE, is the FLICKRIVER server showing the SAME Photo Album Sets, but in a very fast, simple and easier loading and viewing page format: http://www.flickriver.com/photos/44268069@N00/sets No left and right arrows and jumping all around BS needed to view the photos in the FLICKRIVER easier version -- so your choice to check out both ! Good talking to you again Kevin ... MORE PHOTOS FOLOW --- Regards !! - Joe F |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by Stef on Tue Dec 17 03:20:37 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 02:57:12 2013.  This wins hands down. I wish I had your skills! Respectfully, Stef |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Dec 17 04:27:15 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 01:47:26 2013. 5 drooling stars out of 5 drooling stars for u Joe.chud1. :).... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Dec 17 04:30:59 2013, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac - December 15, 1956 - The Book of First and Last Runs, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Dec 17 02:57:12 2013. A+ on these pictures.chud1. :).... |
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