Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

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Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d From today's Daily News, below is an article by a transit advocacy group recommending reactivation of the old line, either with LIRR or subway trains. The subway option involves running either R or M trains onto the old r.o.w. at 63rd Drive using the bellmouth built in 1936 as part of the original IND subway on Queens Blvd. I've suggested that option in earlier posts on this board. "For many years, the residents of the outer boroughs have been shortchanged in mass transit. While billions are being spent for subway expansion in Manhattan, Queens has been neglected. South Queens, in particular, has suffered from inefficient mass transit to Midtown. Both the A and J subway lines have long circuitous routes through Brooklyn and lower Manhattan. Thanks to the proposed convention center at Aqueduct, this picture can be improved dramatically. Some have suggested the revival of the JFK-Super Express service. Since there are more A trains running today than in the 1980s, a service conflict would be created and the needs of the convention center would not be met. Fortunately, there is a better alternative: the revival of the northern section of the old Long Island Rail Road Rockaway branch. The Regional Rail Working Group Rockaway Subcommittee and other transit advocates have studied this line and offer the following options: The Railroad Option would have the LIRR resume operations between Penn Station and Aqueduct. Two stations would be built — at Rego Park and at Aqueduct. The latter would allow transfers to the A train and to the Air Train (if it were extended from Howard Beach). If rail cars are developed with the ability to operate on both lines, a one-seat ride from Midtown to JFK would be created. The Subway Option would divert the M or R subway line east of 63rd Drive (via an already built connection) to the northern section of the Rockaway line. The subway would converge with the A train north of the Aqueduct Station and continue into the Rockaways. At Rego Park, two stations would be built, one for the subway and one for the LIRR mainline to permit transfers between the two services. This would allow Rockaway riders a quick trip to Midtown or to eastern points in Long Island. Under both options, additional stations can be added after consultation with the affected communities. Partially adopting a suggestion from COMMUTE (Communities United for Transportation Equity), Select Bus Services could be established at the Rego Park stations to take riders to LaGuardia Airport, Citi Field and Flushing. Thus, Rego Park would become a transportation hub improving intra-Queens connectivity and allowing riders to travel to many different points with only one transfer. With Genting, the developer behind the project, willing to put up some money and with Governor Cuomo’s strong backing of the convention center, discussing these options is realistic. Since New York City owns the right-of-way, it can build the line itself — as with the #7 extension — if the MTA is not interested. Claims from Queensway proponents that this train line would pollute local neighborhoods and lead to overdevelopment are false. An electric rail line would reduce pollution by attracting people to mass transit, and there is very little vacant space available for development along the right-of-way. In addition, speedier service to Manhattan’s central business district would cause property values to soar. In the summer of 2011, Queens Community Board 9 proposed that the northern section of the Rockaway line be turned into a greenway called “Queensway.” At that time, there was no hope for reactivating the Rockaway line and a bicycle path was better than an abandoned railway overgrown with weeds. With the proposed convention center, CB9 may want to reconsider its position. The choice is very clear: Does CB9 want to be the spoiler conducive to the inundation of Ozone Park with traffic, thus continuing transit misery for Rockaway riders and to block a chance to link Queens in an effective crosstown service? Or does CB9 prefer to be a good neighbor and support a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to improve mass transit for everyone’s benefit? There are already sufficient hiking/biking paths within Forest Park and there are many potential bicycle routes along parallel streets adjacent to the Rockaway line. Additionally, a greenway would only serve a small percentage of Queens’ residents, in comparison to the rail line. This is an historic opportunity to reduce traffic, to create an effective Queens crosstown service, to enhance the commute to Manhattan and to improve access to both airports while meeting the demands of the convention center. Queens Borough President Helen Marshall should appoint a Rockaway Line Reactivation Task Force to assess the north Rockaway line options, and the people of Queens should unite behind this effort to decisively promote the borough’s future." Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/long-island-raid-road-reactivate-northern-section-old-rockaway-branch-advocates-article-1.1014761#ixzz2h8MdGcFm
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Edwards!* on Tue Oct 8 09:27:07 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d about time..makes plenty of sense.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Avid Reader* on Tue Oct 8 09:44:39 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Have been, and will remain a supporter for re-activation of this branch as a transit line. Bravo! Well stated.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Ian Lennon* on Tue Oct 8 09:53:12 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I grew up in Woodhaven. I would have killed to have that line over the Q11.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave* on Tue Oct 8 09:56:49 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Agree 100% with extending the M or R train (preferably the M) onto the old Rockaway Beach line and I really hope CB9 reconsiders its position if they haven't already. This should have been done years ago.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by italianstallion* on Tue Oct 8 09:59:19 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d One quibble - the "proposed convention center" at Aqueduct is dead.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 10:27:27 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Ian Lennon on Tue Oct 8 09:53:12 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So did I, in the 1960's. The Q11 was unpredictable and the Q53 zoomed right through on the center lanes.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 10:28:42 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by italianstallion on Tue Oct 8 09:59:19 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d That's going to make it much harder to make a business case. The Q53 has been slowed down, and there is less Q11/Q53 service en toto.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by R36 #9346* on Tue Oct 8 10:59:22 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Here's another idea spurring off of this one: While SBS to LaGuardia is a feasible for the short term, a long term proposal would be to extend the Rockaway line itself to LaGuardia. So, here's what I'm thinking: Where the southern end of the line ends with a wye, have similar construction at the north end to the Queens Blvd line. One branch would accommodate trains going to/from Manhattan, the other would bend towards Jamaica. Then construct an elevated line over the Van Wyck Expressway north of Jamaica Yard, which would then travel over 126th Street to connect with both Citi Field and the Willets Point station on the 7 line, then go straight to LaGuardia Airport from there.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Mitch45* on Tue Oct 8 12:13:08 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d "The subway option involves running either R or M trains onto the old r.o.w. at 63rd Drive using the bellmouth built in 1936 as part of the original IND subway on Queens Blvd." This is where I stopped reading. There is no way that bellmouth will ever be used. Look how long its taken for this city to build the SAS, which is desperately needed and has been promised for almost 100 years. I think that reactivating it for LIRR use makes more sense anyway.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Olog-hai* on Tue Oct 8 13:19:46 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Oct 8 12:13:08 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d That's why I say it's the government that has gotten in the way of subway expansion.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 13:29:56 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Oct 8 12:13:08 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d LIRR would be prohibitively expensive to ride and probably run once an hour rendering it ineffective transportation. Don't assume City Fare would save the day.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Tue Oct 8 14:33:29 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Great to see this! As said many times, I still this can be (eventually) the revived (W) line, running Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park for reasons well noted previously.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Tue Oct 8 14:34:31 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by italianstallion on Tue Oct 8 09:59:19 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d True, but even without the Convention Center, I still think this needs to be done anyway.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 14:39:25 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Oct 8 14:33:29 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d M, R, W - I don't care which, just do it
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Nilet* on Tue Oct 8 15:18:20 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 8 13:19:46 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The government built the subway, moron.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by streetcarman1* on Tue Oct 8 16:08:01 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Nilet on Tue Oct 8 15:18:20 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And he strongly believes that Liberals kill trains, yet that would mean Liberals side with car and truck manufacturers and that would not be the case.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by MainR3664* on Tue Oct 8 16:13:54 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I my opinion, the ROW should be revived, as an LIRR service. Yes, it would have to charge more than the subway. But...as others have explained on here, the Queens Boulevard Line is at least at capacity. And people will pay a premium fare for a better connection. People use the LIRR from Manhattan to Flushing-Main, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, and Jamaica. Add in service all the way to JFK and either eliminate Air Train or provide a combined fare, and it would be well worthwhile to use the LIRR from Midtown to Woodhaven, Ozone Park, Woodhaven, Aqueduct, and JFK.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Kriston Lewis* on Tue Oct 8 16:14:31 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 8 13:29:56 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Why can't it? CityTicket is supposed to go 24/7 after ESA anyways. Express buses have a market, the railroads will too.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by MainR3664* on Tue Oct 8 16:15:02 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 8 16:13:54 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And of course, there will literally be NIMBYs. But they bought next to an ROW. They are crying crocodile tears, and more electrified transit service will reduce, not increase pollution.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 16:16:39 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Kriston Lewis on Tue Oct 8 16:14:31 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Question is, what is more useful: an hourly commuter train at express bus rates, or a train every 10 minutes for $2.50 ?
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 16:19:15 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 8 16:13:54 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The Queens Blvd local trains are not at capacity - nowhere close. CBTC will eventually increase capacity. People use LIRR to points west of Jamaica, but market share is infinitesimal.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by R 36 ML 9542* on Tue Oct 8 16:38:33 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Edwards! on Tue Oct 8 09:27:07 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d +1.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Nyctransitman* on Tue Oct 8 17:03:43 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Kriston Lewis on Tue Oct 8 16:14:31 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How about that so called Atlantic Branch Scoot Service? They should also allow NYCT MetroCard passengers to utilize it similar to Staten Island Railway with SBS type fare collection system and transfers allowed to subways and buses at both boarding and departing stations. Along this branch LIRR conductors would instead accept these SBS fare proof of payment receipts as well as LIRR tickets.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by italianstallion* on Tue Oct 8 17:05:29 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Nyctransitman on Tue Oct 8 17:03:43 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Great idea.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 17:17:11 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Nyctransitman on Tue Oct 8 17:03:43 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The whole point of the new Brooklyn service is that it would largely isolated from the rest of the LIRR and can run very often. Rockaway Beach trains would have to compete for space on the mainline, whether it be to NYPS or ESA. I do not see them being able to fill a 10 car train twice an hour during the rush as those prices. If they get a City Fare break, what do you do with the other Zone 1 stations as well as Jamaica ?
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris* on Tue Oct 8 17:51:33 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 8 16:13:54 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d People use the LIRR from Manhattan to Flushing-Main, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, and Jamaica. But those trains are passing by anyway.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by 3-9* on Tue Oct 8 18:10:40 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I wouldn't call the J "circuitous". IMO, it has the straightest route to midtown of all. As for overdevelopment: this is why zoning laws exist.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by italianstallion* on Tue Oct 8 19:02:19 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by 3-9 on Tue Oct 8 18:10:40 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The J does not come anywhere near midtown.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by renee gil* on Tue Oct 8 19:13:50 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by 3-9 on Tue Oct 8 18:10:40 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d you meant the J has the straightest route to lower manhattan right?
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by AlM* on Tue Oct 8 19:14:09 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by italianstallion on Tue Oct 8 19:02:19 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d But from Jamaica, the J does provide a quite direct route to midtown. You just have to change to the F for the final 2 miles. 3-9 is correct in noting that the J route is not circuitous.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Oct 8 19:47:55 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by AlM on Tue Oct 8 19:14:09 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The J & F is a schlep, and s the A &C
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by AlM* on Tue Oct 8 20:15:20 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 8 19:47:55 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Sure. The J is very slow. But it isn't circuitous. The A is faster but more circuitous.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by jimmymc25* on Tue Oct 8 21:02:10 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 8 14:39:25 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I agree! Jimmymc25
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Graham* on Tue Oct 8 23:11:53 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Guys, This story dates from February 2012... ...but nothing prevents anyone from using social media to get a group organized to oppose the 'rail to trail' group as people like that need stopping.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Henry R32 #3730* on Wed Oct 9 00:59:18 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 8 14:39:25 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Same here... except, M, R, LIRR, just do it! If the LIRR proves to be unpopular, they've already done most of the work to subway-ifyit anyway...
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Wed Oct 9 01:58:27 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 8 17:17:11 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d AllMTA rail stations within city limits should be fare integrated w/NYCT via Metrocard readers.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Newkirk Images* on Wed Oct 9 05:28:58 2013, in response to Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by andy on Tue Oct 8 08:44:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Death to Queensway ! Bill Newkirk
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by MainR3664* on Wed Oct 9 06:59:52 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Oct 8 17:51:33 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Hmm. Well, I think with the JFK connection, the Rockaway would see much more use than it did in the 1955-62 period. Back then, jet travel was just getting started... Nowadays, tourists and business travelers could (if this line was rebuilt) get to/from JFK and Midtown at less than the cost of a cab, but still under better conditions than the IND...
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by MainR3664* on Wed Oct 9 07:02:30 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by AlM on Tue Oct 8 20:15:20 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I've railfanned both, and enjoyed them. But doing those rides every day could get tough. Especially with luggage. LIRR could help a lot.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by MainR3664* on Wed Oct 9 07:03:40 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Kriston Lewis on Tue Oct 8 16:14:31 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I agree.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Edwards!* on Wed Oct 9 10:05:10 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 8 16:19:15 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d you are 100 percent correct. the express is maxed out for the current signal system..but the local has room for about 6 more trains per hour..if two things are done extension past 71 ave to a new terminal next to the yard..and the use of the old Rockaway turnoff.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Edwards!* on Wed Oct 9 10:11:14 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by renee gil on Tue Oct 8 19:13:50 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d maybe..it is as direct as direct can be,minus the curve at Crescent st,which by all means SHOULD have been fixed years ago,or broken up into two routes..one along Fulton..and one directly along Jamaica avenue.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Oct 9 10:24:08 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 8 16:19:15 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d CBTC will eventually increase capacity. No signal system increases capacity. Intermediate station capacity is determined by: acceleration rate; service braking rate; station dwell time; train length and emergency braking rate. None of these parameters has anything to do with the signal system. Capacity is also determined by track layout at terminals. Again, nothing to do with signal system.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Joe V* on Wed Oct 9 10:35:25 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Oct 9 10:24:08 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Capacity has EVERYthing to do with the signal system. What are you talking about ?
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by AlM* on Wed Oct 9 10:40:03 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Oct 9 10:24:08 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Would you agree that a bad signal system can reduce capacity? For example, suppose that the Queens Blvd signal system consisted of manual messages by telegraph operators that a train had passed a certain station and therefore it was OK for the next train to proceed to that station. So if a bad signal system can reduce capacity, why can't a better one icnrease capacity?
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Oct 9 11:12:47 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by AlM on Wed Oct 9 10:40:03 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Would you agree that a bad signal system can reduce capacity? No. A bad signal system can reduce maximum service levels, not the inherent capacity in the line. So if a bad signal system can reduce capacity, why can't a better one increase capacity? How does one apply metrics to a "bad" or "good" signal system? There's are two metrics: capacity and maximum service levels. Maximum service levels are less than or equal to capacity. One measures the ratio of maximum service level to capacity.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by AlM* on Wed Oct 9 11:15:40 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Oct 9 11:12:47 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d OK, what you are calling maximum service level is what everyone else is calling capacity.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Oct 9 11:56:22 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by AlM on Wed Oct 9 11:15:40 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d what you are calling maximum service level is what everyone else is calling capacity. There is an important difference. If economics were not an issue, what would the minimum headway be with the present signal system? What would it be with CBTC? How do these figures compare with capacity? My assertion, based on measurements, is: the current system could handle 90 second headways (40 tph) on both the local and express tracks. They are currently running 30 tph on the express and less than 20 tph on the local. There is plenty of unused capacity available to increase service levels without need (and expense) to change the current signal system. Moreover, the capacity is around 44 tph. There is very little improvement that a different signal system would provide. If their NTT trains had better acceleration and service braking rates to 4.0 mph/sec and the emergency braking rate to 7.0 mph/sec, line capacity would be raised to around 47 tph. It would take a new signal system to realize these capacity gains. CBTC might be a realistic and possibly cost effective option in that case.
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Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Oct 9 11:58:54 2013, in response to Re: Old LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Joe V on Wed Oct 9 10:35:25 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How?
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