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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Sep 9 11:13:00 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Sep 9 11:09:04 2013. tunnels on the R extend beyond the bumper blocks to 101st.101st.was supposed to be an 11 track underground yard,which wasn`t built,just 2 empty holes with no know exit to the street. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 9 12:07:38 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Sep 9 11:09:04 2013. yes it was..the original plan had the line leaving the Queens Blvd route at Queens Plaza...through the yards taking over the Rockaway lines row on the LIRR.. It was one track bidirectional express service. The 76th st subway tunnel would have connected to the QB local under Broadway and Steinway...[there is rumored there is a IND tunnel under that street built for that purpose,now used by the NYPD] The 63rd st tunnel/subway joined to two separate routes at 41av and Northern Blvd.. What missing is the Northern Blvd station that would have sat exactly where they are constructing the LIRR tunnel under that street. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Sep 9 12:20:08 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 9 12:07:38 2013. The 76th st subway tunnel would have connected to the QB local under Broadway and Steinway...[there is rumored there is a IND tunnel under that street built for that purpose,now used by the NYPD]juat outside the Steinway ave station, there is a door [on the catwalk]. a look through the door will reveal a lower level tunnel. i'm pretty sure this tunnel was built for the IND Second System. a line [76th st subway tunnel] would have split away from the QB local tracks just outside of this station, and would have run across the East River and into Manhattan. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Sep 9 22:01:37 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Mon Sep 9 12:20:08 2013. Does Tunnelrat know about this one??? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Graham on Mon Sep 9 23:43:41 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Mon Sep 9 12:20:08 2013. According to the Wikipedia page on the 63rd St Line one of the early proposals (Feb. 1963) for what became the 63rd Street tunnel was actually going to cross the river at 76th Street. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Sep 9 23:53:46 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Sep 9 22:01:37 2013. of course. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Sep 10 00:04:17 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Mon Sep 9 12:20:08 2013. it's on the southbound side btw. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 10 17:02:47 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Graham on Mon Sep 9 23:43:41 2013. From where in manhattan? 2nd Ave, 6th Ave, BMT 7th Ave? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Sep 11 03:04:31 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 10 17:02:47 2013. 6th avenue subway from 47-50th..up and through Central Park to 76th..under that street..under the river to the foot of Broadway..under that street to the IND local tunnel via the partial built tunnel segment. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Sep 11 03:20:15 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Mon Sep 9 12:20:08 2013. i meant Steinway street, not avenue. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 11 07:26:08 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. Wow!!! That is really informative. I have seen the short turnouts just outside of Whitehall St., Brooklyn-bound, as well as the high ceilings at the west end of the Bowery (J/Z) station... |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 11 07:30:46 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 11 07:26:08 2013. I'd like to add that I've also seen many times the never-used turnouts just outside of the 4th Ave/36th St Station. I wondered for years what they were for. You provided the answer in a similar discussion a year or so ago...thanks again. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Sep 11 11:10:20 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 11 07:26:08 2013. thanks. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by MR RT on Wed Sep 11 11:41:07 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. Thank you very much for sharing ! |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions (OT: nycsubway.org missing maps) |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Wed Sep 11 13:07:53 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions (OT: nycsubway.org missing maps), posted by Graham on Sat Sep 7 09:59:59 2013. it works fine: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/trackmap/pm_southeast_3.png |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Sep 11 17:20:32 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by MR RT on Wed Sep 11 11:41:07 2013. you're welcome. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Wed Sep 11 22:40:18 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Graham on Fri Sep 6 23:35:36 2013. The Grand Street Wikipedia article only says that the walls were designed to be removed for conversion of the station, not that anything was built behind the walls as at 63rd/Lex (oddly citing a track schematic at nycsubway.org depicting one of the old SAS proposals. I don't think there is any dispute that Grand Street was designed to be expanded to accommodate "shallow" SAS, but I've never seen any documentation that they dug out the station box beyond what was constructed. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 13:10:38 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. The space with the higher ceiling at 2nd Ave/Houston St. is NOT the space for the 2nd Avenue line. If you look closely at it, there isn't enough space between the ceiling and the roofs of F trains for another line. You'd still have to carve out more ceiling for it to fit. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Sep 12 14:14:55 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 13:10:38 2013. There were many extra stairways as orignally built. These connected the 2nd Ave platforms to the mezzanine which stretched nearly the entire distance from 1st ave to 2nd ave. It was fenced off. If you walk the platform, the ceiling changes height near the 2nd Ave end in a way which COULD indicate trackway/platform provisions. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 14:15:12 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. For East Broadway: to clarify, there are 2 active mezzanines. I think you're talking about the locked door (in fact, the entire wall) on the north side of the south/east mezzanine, where people would have been able to descend the ramp and walk directly to the Worth St. line. A door(?) and part of the wall on the south side of the lower level of the north/west mezzanine (which is where the Worth St line would have gone through) is the other end.That section of the lower and upper mezzanine has been closed for many decades (in nearly 50 years, no one in my family remembers it being open). There is even a closed exit stairway and possibly the provision for an embedded token booth (now tiled over). Note also that on the F platform, all the stairways (including the abandoned ones) face north, except for the northernmost one, which faces south. If there had been a Worth St line, the stairways would have directed people towards that line's trains. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 14:21:56 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Thu Sep 12 14:14:55 2013. I'm just pointing out that the raised ceiling space which people for years claimed to be for the 2nd Ave subway is in fact too shallow to fit trackways. If it was a real provision, the ceiling would be much higher. I believe it was tunnelrat who mentioned the actual provision is a closed space, now being used as a crew room. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Sep 12 14:27:24 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 14:21:56 2013. oh, yes. i remember reading that unused space at 2nd ave. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Sep 12 14:35:24 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 14:15:12 2013. A sealed staircase in the middle of the passageway leads to Henry Street. Inside fare control, the mezzanine extends to an area now used as space for maintenance. Some of the staircases lead to an intermediate level and show more evidence of this. This level was supposed to be a station of the unbuilt Worth Street subway. Behind a locked door, located in the north end of the mezzanine, the floor drops to the level of the intended trackways for the unbuilt Worth Street Line. The unused space runs for no more than fifteen feet to a solid wall. Near the north end of this station, a different ceiling structure angling across marks where the unbuilt subway would have gone. The ramp that descends from the full-time side would have led to the same intermediate level, with a station facility in between, but that was never constructed. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 15:54:20 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Thu Sep 12 14:35:24 2013. There are still mosaics pointing to Henry St at the south/west mezzanine. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Gene B. on Thu Sep 12 17:53:56 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Howard Fein on Thu Oct 18 08:24:46 2007. With regard to the Eastern Parkway question, it is my understanding that there was a series of old trees which the engineers avoided and tried to preserve by using the double deck system.Unfortunately the trees were not preserved and we are left with the double deck set up and the problems therewith, especially at Rogers Junction. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 12 18:39:06 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Gene B. on Thu Sep 12 17:53:56 2013. Considering that Franklin Av station is a single level 4 track conventional express station, it's surprising that Nostrand Jct (As we call it on the road) wasn't done similarly to either 36/4 or 59/Columbus Circle even though the latter came later. The short distance beyond Franklin shouldn't have raised too many eyebrows especially if the rest of the subway were built the way it was. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Sep 13 01:21:01 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 12 13:10:38 2013. Actually..the Second avenue subway was planned by the BOT in conjunction with the 6th avenue Houston st subway.\the 8th avenue subway...the Concourse..and Queens Blvd routes.It was also inter linked with lines that were also proposed,such as the 34th st route..the 10 avenue subway on the far west side,and the new routes proposed for the outer boro's. The 2nd ave station's design had the SAS running through the upper level Mezz..which also served as part of the SAS Houston street two platform station. The same set up is found at East Bway F line station,where the Worth st subway crosses over the lower level,except at this station,it was partially built. you would never know you were standing in the Worth St subway because the track bed was covered over..the tunnels were sealed off on each end. The tunnel box is incomplete..of course,as it is as long as the station is wide. there a minor tunnel segments built into the upper level 2nd avenue station on each side,while the space was left open due to cost[why this was done here,and not to other provisions is strange,but looking at how huge the Houston st lines express stations are,it's a no brainier as far as expenses go]. So,,there IS room after all..yet cut and cover would have been used to build out the station to completion. Todays SAS plan has the new route traveling UNDER the Houston line,as the routes profile has been changed to "deep level" construction to avoid a ton of leftover steel left over in the street from the LOMEX/CHRYSTIE ST tunnels. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 13 07:14:41 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Edwards! on Fri Sep 13 01:21:01 2013. Thanks. I think a 10th Ave line would be in very heavy demand nowadays, with all the development taking place over there. Also, thanks for clarifying why the current SAS plan is to tunnel under the Houston St line. I was wondering why they don't just use all the existing space at the 2nd Ave Station. From what you're saying, they basically lost that option in the 1960s when they built Chrystie St and the tiny piece of the expressway... |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Mkeit on Fri Sep 13 08:21:19 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 13 07:14:41 2013. The Second Ave plan in the Seventies was all cut and cover. Tunnelling technology has evoved since then to allow a dep tunnel to be built, with less surface disruption. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Sep 13 12:40:57 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Mkeit on Fri Sep 13 08:21:19 2013. Unfortunately, deep bore routes are a disservice to riders. First there is the added expense of more and deeper escalators/elevators requiring more maintenance every year, and worse, each time a rider enters/exits at a station there is the time penalty of a longer time from sidewalk to platform. The original IRT and BMT stations in Manhattan got it right; s short distance down directly to platform level. Quick |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Sep 13 19:30:52 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 13 07:14:41 2013. Pretty much..I mean they could cut a way through the steel sheeting, I BEAMS and tunnel provisions left over for the Nassau st connector. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sat Sep 14 10:09:32 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Sep 13 12:40:57 2013. The original IRT and BMT stations in Manhattan got it right; s short distance down directly to platform level. QuickThere were less underground utilities to contend with back then. Now, there are other subway lines, water, sewer, telephone, Cable TV, and steam and river and creek beds. Ideally the deep bore routes should rise up for stations as the IRT ROWs did to aid in stopping and starting by using gravity. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by murray1575 on Sat Sep 14 17:12:23 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Avid Reader on Sat Sep 14 10:09:32 2013. Not all of the original IRT and BMT stations in Manhattan were built directly under the street; the Whitehall St. BMT R station is a long way down due to its proximity to the shore line and other subway lines in the area. Some of the IRT stations on the 1 in Washington Heights are several stories below street level as well. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Sep 14 17:38:51 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by murray1575 on Sat Sep 14 17:12:23 2013. Correct at both ends of Manhattan, but my comment still stands that the majority of Manh. stations are shallow cut and cover which remains the most convenient for riders. As to the other utilities, yes they are an issue, but as with ANY major public works project designers will figure out how to lace/thread the various parts around each other. We all know about 34th & 6th on the IND having to slip in between/around H&M and BMT, but it was done, and is still closer to the sidewalk and former basement entrances to retailers than the SAS currently being built. Slow, balky, and often OOS escalators are NOT rapid transit. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Asgard on Wed Sep 18 12:07:32 2013, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. A book on unbuilt routes will be published in November by Fordham University Press:The Routes Not Taken: a Trip Through New York City's Unbuilt Subway System by Joseph B. Raskin. http://fordhampress.com/index.php/subjects/new-york/the-routes-not-taken-cloth.html |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Sep 18 12:36:37 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Asgard on Wed Sep 18 12:07:32 2013. I know I am hoping to get it. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Tony Clifton on Wed Sep 18 12:38:07 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Asgard on Wed Sep 18 12:07:32 2013. Thanks. Now should I ask the obvious question? "Is this book going to address 76th Street?" |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Sep 18 12:42:26 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Tony Clifton on Wed Sep 18 12:38:07 2013. probably not.I spoke to him about 10 years ago and he had no knowledge of it. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Tony Clifton on Wed Sep 18 12:46:20 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Sep 18 12:42:26 2013. Well 10 years ago 76 Street was just coming into its own. Maybe by now he has researched it and has included it in his book. Not doing so makes the book incomplete. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Dan on Wed Sep 18 14:46:44 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Asgard on Wed Sep 18 12:07:32 2013. Looks interesting but I don't think we'll find anything new to us in his book. Like color photos of 76 Street / Pitkin. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 18 16:34:52 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Tony Clifton on Wed Sep 18 12:46:20 2013. As I have mentioned in several posts on this subject, I first heard about the existence of 76 St from a C/R, now deceased, in 1962 so its existence was known long before the present hype started. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 18 21:19:52 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Oct 17 08:27:26 2007. I read that the 63rd Street tunnel had a proposed route up 21st St, Queens- possibly to LaGuardia Apt. Are there any bellmouths at/near 41st Ave and 21st St in Queens? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Sep 18 22:49:10 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 18 21:19:52 2013. it wasn't the 63rd..it was the 60th st tunnel. the route would have travel to Astoria,the along Ditmars Blvd..Northern..the Harding. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Thu Sep 19 13:36:30 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Dan on Wed Sep 18 14:46:44 2013. Joe's done some great research ... I think we will learn a few new things.--Mark |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Tony Clifton on Sun Sep 22 23:19:04 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 18 16:34:52 2013. I'm well aware of that. But as I noted, "10 years ago 76 Street was just coming into its own." It didn't gain widespread popularity until the dawn and maturation of the internet. So if he didn't know about 76 Street 10 years ago, then by now he should know about it. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Sep 22 23:31:14 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Howard Fein on Thu Oct 18 08:24:46 2007. If you look at the 1924 and 1951 aerial photos here, you'll see that Queens Blvd was widened sometime between those two years and probably when the IND was built. Further, it appears the blvd was widened onto its south/west side. It is therefore likely that the subway was built alongside the existing boulevard, then once covered, the boulevard was widened onto it. That could explain any asymmetry there. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Tony Clifton on Sun Sep 22 23:32:16 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Thu Sep 19 13:36:30 2013. Do you know if he has researched 76 Street? |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 23 02:52:33 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Howard Fein on Thu Oct 18 08:24:46 2007. The Smith st line is cut and cover,shield bored tunnel,particularly in the area you mentioned due to the hilly terrain.Before the subway was built..Queens Blvd was more like a country road connecting LIC to the Courts in Kew Gardens and Jamaica. The IND had plans for the line to split in another section away from the mainline[see early plans for the IND SYSTEM..LOCATED at the QUEENS PUBLIC LIBRARY'S MAIN BRANCH LONG ISLAND ROOM]for "extra capacity"..something that didn't make it into the completed route,except for the Woodhaven Blvd station provisions...and the Broadway/Steinway st tunnels. the new tunnels were to be located under the off side of the main thoroughfare.. Later..plans had the extra track[reduced to one for bidirectional traffic] moved to the old Rockaway branch along side the LIRR. The CPW line was an odd one. The line originally "belonged" to the PSC..with the intentions of getting the BRT/BMT to partially fund, build/operate this line as and extension of its Broadway subway line through the heart of Manhattan. History has The former mayor "Red Mike Hylan" as the major road block to any private line expansion..Hylan's Board Of Transportation..created to take over subway building from the PSC..mapped out miles of new subway lines..all coming out of the BOT's adaptation of the BMT's CPW route. The IND route plan had several former piecemeal BMT planned routes connected at various points to create a seamless string of subway lines[AS CLEARLY indicated by the 8th ave subway]. ..the IND DID LEAVE space for a two track double deck line along side its own on CPW..but due to the complicated construction THAT would need to be undertaken..it was decided that the line would deep bore under the park...to Morningside Hts. The IND subway was and is a marvel of modern engineering for it time.. one has to truly wonder what it would have looked like if it ever was completed in full. |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Sep 23 14:42:36 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Tony Clifton on Sun Sep 22 23:32:16 2013. That I do not know.--Mark |
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Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 23 18:08:44 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Sep 22 23:31:14 2013. Quite a few streets were either through routed or widened as part of the IND subway construction. 6 Av in Manhattan was through routed to Church St between W 3 St and Canal and Church St itself was widened on the west side between Canal and Park Place. Pitkin Av itself di not exist past Ruby St (75 St in Queens) and was through routed with South Rd at the Bkln/Qns border as part of the proposed extension of the Pitkin Av portion of the IND past Euclid Av (76 St). I'M not quite sure of this one, but I seem to recall that I read somewhere that Houston St was widened between 6 Av and Essex St (or thereabouts) for the construction of the IND Houston St Line. There is also documentation that 7 Av was through routed to Varick St creating 7 Av South as part of the construction of the 7 Av IRT line. |
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