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| (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER (1229609) | |
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| (1229659) | |
Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by j trainloco on Mon Jun 17 19:51:03 2013, in response to (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Gold_12th on Mon Jun 17 18:10:43 2013. In other words,an electrical malfunction messed up the signals and that stopped three trains in their tracks,blocking the tunnel and stranding half of Brooklyn on the wrong side of the East River during rush hourTalk about melodramatic... |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by monorail on Mon Jun 17 21:04:34 2013, in response to (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Gold_12th on Mon Jun 17 18:10:43 2013. just can't wait for the installation of cbtc for the 7 Line to be completed..... |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jun 17 21:21:08 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by monorail on Mon Jun 17 21:04:34 2013. yeah, really! |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon Jun 17 21:22:18 2013, in response to (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Gold_12th on Mon Jun 17 18:10:43 2013. Another Day In The MTA! The ULTIMATE reality show!!! :-) |
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| (1229711) | |
Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon Jun 17 21:23:03 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by monorail on Mon Jun 17 21:04:34 2013. Wow, I can't wait either!!!! :-D |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 17 22:04:57 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by monorail on Mon Jun 17 21:04:34 2013. You'd think with CBTC's ability to run trains inches from its leader, that they could have just piled them all up in there and let people walk across. :) |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by monorail on Mon Jun 17 22:11:16 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 17 22:04:57 2013. would be faster..... |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 17 22:29:47 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 17 22:04:57 2013. You'd think with CBTC's ability to run trains inches from its leader, that they could have just piled them all up in there and let people walk across.CBTC does not have any such ability. What probably happened was that the system lost a train due to a communications failure. Once that happens the only thing a CBTC system can do is stop all the trains behind it that are on the same auxiliary wayside system block. |
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| (1229731) | |
Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 17 22:36:41 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 17 22:29:47 2013. I'm betting on salty contact fingers myself. It DID get wet down there, and the humidity is on the rise since summer's coming. You know the rest of the story, I'll bet. |
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| (1229732) | |
Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 17 22:37:19 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by monorail on Mon Jun 17 22:11:16 2013. As an electronics engineer myself, I love the butthurt when somebody blasphemes technology. :) |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by cnrmmc on Mon Jun 17 23:29:25 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 17 22:37:19 2013. There are stll delays on the L as of 11:30 pm |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 17 23:31:14 2013, in response to (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Gold_12th on Mon Jun 17 18:10:43 2013. Are there any more whiny people than L line riders?Suck it up. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by monorail on Tue Jun 18 01:19:09 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 17 23:31:14 2013. the riders of the 7 |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by CJ on Tue Jun 18 01:25:38 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by monorail on Mon Jun 17 21:04:34 2013. I can't wait until Queens blvd Lines gets it. That will be really something spectacular to see..... |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Jun 18 02:10:24 2013, in response to (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Gold_12th on Mon Jun 17 18:10:43 2013. I like how they still call it "signal problems", when there aren't any signals out there anymore.But, this is what happens when CBTC gets a bit wonky, and you have no third track to reroute to. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 05:00:26 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 17 22:04:57 2013. There were multiple BIE's. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 05:02:12 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 17 23:31:14 2013. Brighton Line riders............G line riders........ |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Tue Jun 18 05:03:18 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 05:02:12 2013. M line riders...the list can go on. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Broadway Buffer on Tue Jun 18 05:27:12 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by LRG5784 on Tue Jun 18 05:03:18 2013. The ridership of each line always seems to believe that their's is the worst. Of course they seldom ever ride another line outside of Manhattan if at all. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Tue Jun 18 07:52:55 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 05:00:26 2013. What hurts is they aren't allowed to switch to manual or bypass to avoid BIES and run at restricted speed. They ripped out their automatic signals. What a bunch of losers. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Tue Jun 18 08:24:34 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 17 23:31:14 2013. I believe West End riders hold the record. They actually got the car type changed from R40's to R68's.... |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Jun 18 09:58:06 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 17 23:31:14 2013. sure there are...some with pretty good reasons.but..to live in a nab..you should be acquainted with most, if not ALL transportation options available. Personally..i prefer using the rails over driving..its cheaper in the long run.. seriously,you have to be a complete idiot to stay in a station under those conditions waiting...when another option is less than a mile away. |
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| (1229821) | |
Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 18 13:59:56 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 17 23:31:14 2013. Hwt, being stranded at Bedford is a real nuisance even if you know your way around. First you have to walk over to Lorimer/Grand. Then you have to take a G up to Court Square and an E or 7 into Manhattan.Yes, there are line closures that are far worse to deal with. But there are also closures that are far less of a pain. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 14:46:06 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 05:00:26 2013. Yep ... I was amused by "signal problems" given that they ripped all of those out. "Can't Bypass Track Circuits" ... :) |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Jun 18 15:09:56 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Tue Jun 18 08:24:34 2013. Didn't Brighton riders lobby to get rid of the R-46s due to excessive wheel vibration (and ended up with R-10s, since they didn't specify what they wanted in return)?--Mark |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Tue Jun 18 15:16:18 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Jun 18 15:09:56 2013. Before my time Mark >G< was living on Long Island then. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 18 17:29:23 2013, in response to (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Gold_12th on Mon Jun 17 18:10:43 2013. That picture looks like a normal day at Bedford. No? |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 18:17:46 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Tue Jun 18 15:09:56 2013. R44's when a train jackknifed in 1979 and almost took out Kings Highway Tower. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 18:27:19 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by BLE-NIMX on Tue Jun 18 07:52:55 2013. They ripped out their automatic signals. What a bunch of losers.Kind of defeats one of the main purposes of CBTC if you leave the block signals in. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 18:28:56 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 18:27:19 2013. Yep ... heaven forfend having another way to win when HAL9000 craps out. :-\ |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 18:39:12 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 18:28:56 2013. That's like saying the MTA is stupid for not having a fallback when signal relays fail. You can only go so far with redundancy. I do agree that there should be a bypass mode for situations, but that can't be a bypass mode that includes spending hundreds of millions to replace a system two times at once.What will be interesting to see is how Thales performs on Flushing. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 18:55:19 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 18:39:12 2013. After the Chambers Street fire on 8th Avenue, they broke out some supervision with radios to clear trains around the dark signals. Certainly a system as complex and expensive as CBTC should have some form of supervisory override as part of the design instead of just laying down, dying and smelling funny. Strikes me as though some parts of the design weren't well thought out for failure modes.Then again, you don't design a system around proprietary parts that may or may not be available any more after a mere couple of years. I hate to sound like a Luddite here, but building systems with a lifespan of a Windows PC replacing systems that were good for decades doesn't strike me as intelligent thought. Especially when failure mode results in nothing instead of at least some means of working around a failure. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by David on Tue Jun 18 19:47:26 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 18:17:46 2013. January 16, 1981, if memory serves. The R-44s were gone right after that, and the Brighton Line didn't see 75-foot cars again (not by schedule, anyway) until the R-68s entered service starting in 1986.David |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 20:16:38 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 18:55:19 2013. After the Chambers Street fire on 8th Avenue,they broke out some supervision with radios to clear trains around the dark signals. Certainly a system as complexand expensive as CBTC should have some form of supervisory override as part of the design instead of just laying down,dying and smelling funny.Of course they could do that. CBTC can be disabled on the trains and the signals department can do the same thing that was done at Chambers. Mind you that, during the Chambers fire, the A had significantly reduced headways, the C was suspended, and trains creeped through the affected area. Then again,you don't design a system around proprietary parts that may or may not be available any more after a mere couple of years. I hate to sound like a Luddite here,but building systems with a lifespan of a Windows PC replacing systems that were good for decades doesn't strike me as intelligent thought. Agree. Siemens deployment of CBTC on Canarsie was poor. We need to see how it works with Thales on Flushing. I do find it ridiculous that Flushing and Canarsie will not be compatible with the rest of the system. I also don't like many of the constraints that have been designed into CBTC. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Jun 18 20:26:06 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by David on Tue Jun 18 19:47:26 2013. You're right. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 20:43:35 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 20:16:38 2013. Yep ... back in my day, absolute block had to be done every now and then too. We got handed up a wooden baton which we had to hand down when we got to the other side. From what I see here, when CBTC spit the bit, the railroad stopped entirely. That's certainly not a good sign. Bad service is better than no service. :)As to how Thales works out, here's hoping there were lessons learned. From what I understood when Canarsie was first going over to CBTC, I understood that they were going to leave the old signals there as a backup in case something went tits-up. I guess that wasn't the case. When it comes to critical systems design though, you don't leave yourself with only one way to win. You just don't. :( |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 21:08:01 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 20:43:35 2013. Yep ... back in my day,absolute block had to be done every now and then too. We got handed up a wooden baton which we had to hand down when we got to the other side. From what I see here,when CBTC spit the bit,the railroad stopped entirely. That's certainly not a good sign. Bad service is better than no service. :)Actually, CBTC is able to establish a single track operation much quicker than a baton setup. And CBTC CAN keep trains going... it just isn't as simple as hooking down a stop arm. From what I understood when Canarsie was first going over to CBTC,I understood that they were going to leave the old signals there as a backup in case something went tits-up. I guess that wasn't the case. When it comes to critical systems design though,you don't leave yourself with only one way to win. You just don't. :( Understand that keeping the wayside and block signalling would make the point of CBTC useless. CBTC is supposed to be cheaper, while offering far more capability than a traditional fixed block system. If you have to keep the fixed block system, kind of defeats the purpose of implementing CBTC. And fixed block systems also only have one way to win. When the relay craps out, you have to disable the system; the same thing CBTC would have to endure. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 21:14:54 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 21:08:01 2013. While that's all true about both, having TWO ways to win is better than one nonetheless. If CBTC is up and fat dumb and happy, those waysides could go dark so as to not confuse the operator and when CBTC goes four paws to the moon, wasyide could be lit up for the duration. You still need those track circuits even if all they do is detect broken rail. What's done is done, it IS what it is of course. But still ... don't mind me, I'm old enough to remember when "progress" meant "improvement" ... better than what you were wrecking out. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Jun 18 21:51:07 2013, in response to (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Gold_12th on Mon Jun 17 18:10:43 2013. So Sandy is the super storm that keeps on giving.... |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 21:55:45 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Jun 18 21:51:07 2013. We're still opening packages from Irene upstate, no salt water here for that extra kiss either. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Jun 18 21:59:18 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 21:55:45 2013. Whew, man that sucks. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jun 18 22:45:56 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Jun 18 21:59:18 2013. Water VERY bad for electricals. Salt water even worse. :( |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 19 09:08:37 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by j trainloco on Tue Jun 18 18:39:12 2013. It is a system which moves MILLIONS a day. Why maintain a system at all if you are going to make your passengers take buses instead? |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by Far Rockaway A Train on Wed Jun 19 09:52:07 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by David on Tue Jun 18 19:47:26 2013. So that explains why the "A" received the entire R44 fleet. I remember that week very well. Starting that Monday, the "A" started receiving R32s. Later on some R44s started appearing while R46s started decreasing. By Friday, the "A" had a crap load of R32s-right into the night. Then poof, by Saturday morning all R32s as well as the R46s disappeared.This is probably the reason why the R38s was placed on the "D" train. |
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Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER |
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Posted by j trainloco on Wed Jun 19 12:30:54 2013, in response to Re: (L) train this morning's commute DISASTER, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Jun 19 09:08:37 2013. You are absolutely correct. That's why they need to hurry up and get CBTC done, so that this doesn't happen again. |
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A sight you do not want to see in the morning as you're walking down Bedford Avenue in Brooklyn toward the L train subway stop is a long line of commuters outside the local livery cab dispatch station. It can only mean one thing: the trains aren't moving. That's what happened Monday morning. Now the question is: will it keep happening? 