Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake

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Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d From the Star Ledger: Madison Square Garden should move to make way for roomier N.Y. Penn Station, planners say At New York Penn Station, the hemisphere’s busiest transit hub, Madison Square Garden occupies the penthouse and rail riders get the dingy basement. But the cellar-dwellers are ready to emerge from the darkness. As the New York City Planning Commission and City Council consider whether to renew the 50-year permit that allowed the Garden to operate on top of Penn Station, the three transit agencies that use the station below — including NJ Transit and Amtrak — are asking for skylights, better signage and improvements to entrances, elevators and taxiway pedestrian access as a condition for renewal. The Madison Square Garden Co., which owns the arena that is undergoing a nearly $1 billion renovation, wants a permit to operate in perpetuity. But some regional planners and politicians, who say having the Garden atop the transportation hub chokes the much-needed expansion of Penn Station, instead would like to see only a 10-year permit renewal, allowing time for the Garden to find an alternative location in Manhattan. The civic groups Regional Plan Association and Municipal Art Society formed an alliance to advocate for the overhaul of Penn Station and relocation of the Garden. They called on regional planners and politicians to "seize a unique opportunity this year to envision substantial changes to Penn Station, where overcrowded and grim public areas have plagued hundreds of thousands of daily commuters for nearly five decades." It has all the makings of a record-breaking title bout at MSG’s famed boxing ring. In this corner, weighing in with hundreds of thousands of basketball and hockey fans and concertgoers, "The World’s Most Famous Arena." And in this corner, weighing in with hundreds of thousands of commuters, North America’s busiest rail station. When the ornate Beaux Arts original Pennsylvania Station was demolished in the early 1960s to make way for a train station topped by Madison Square Garden, passenger rail was thought to be waning. About 200,000 passengers a day used the station that had grand, soaring ceilings. Ridership has since tripled, but the space inside the building largely remains the same. "While Madison Square Garden serves as a major entertainment venue and lively civic asset, the original permit clearly reflects very different urban development priorities from those of today," representatives from NJ Transit, Amtrak and Long Island Rail Road wrote in a letter to the planning commission. "The City’s actions permitting the siting of the arena and the Two Penn Plaza office tower in the place of the iconic station building set the course for the irrevocable loss of a spacious rail terminal and great civic landmark. "Despite significant subsequent investments by the station’s rail carriers to better accommodate these passengers," the letter continued, "travelers have for decades been confined to functionally inadequate accommodations in the makeshift underground station, and have been hampered by severely limited street-level access at a handful of poorly marked and architecturally flawed entrances that are in some cases all but hidden from the street." Along with the letter, the transit agency representatives provided photos of passengers packed like sardines, a hard-to-read Pennsylvania Station entrance sign and delivery vehicles blocking traffic outside the station. Madison Square Garden, owner of the Knicks and Rangers, said in a statement that virtually all special permits are granted without "artificial expirations" and that no other sports arena or stadium in New York City has a time limit imposed. "The Garden — a company that has recently invested nearly $1 billion in its Arena and helps drive the city’s economy by supporting thousands of jobs and attracting hundreds of annual events — is being unfairly singled out because of a decision that was made 50 years ago: to demolish the original Penn Station," the statement read. "Adding an arbitrary expiration for reasons unrelated to the special permit process or requirements would not only set a dangerous and questionable precedent, but would also hinder our ability to make MSG and New York City the long-term home of even more world-class events, and would harm a business that has served as a significant economic driver for the city for generations." John W. Nabial Sr. of West Windsor, who commutes from Princeton Junction to Manhattan, would like to see walls demolished "to remove the catacombs feel to much of the station" and have more room left for the flow of passenger traffic. He also would like to see more access points to the street level and have rail platforms become wider or more accessible, along with better ventilation and lighting. Commuter Tom Calabria, who takes the train from West Windsor to New York, said the signs and monitors for outbound track assignments are "horrific" on the lower level because they are at eye level and people stand in front of them. "They constantly bring crowded trains in on platforms that have an outbound train on the opposite side, so half the escalators are going the wrong way," he added. Drew Galloway, assistant vice president of policy and development at Amtrak, said cramped conditions at the station get so stifling that "several times each year, we literally have to close the station to avoid dangerous overcrowding." "It’s like the Oklahoma Land Rush at 5 p.m. at 34th Street and 7th Avenue," he added, getting knowing chuckles this month during a presentation in Atlantic City on Amtrak’s proposed Gateway train tunnel from Secaucus to the south side of New York Penn Station. New Jersey transportation expert Martin E. Robins, director emeritus of the Alan M. Voorhees Transportation Center at Rutgers University, has had the claustrophobic feeling of being stuck on crowded platforms at Penn Station, has had long waits for cabs and has had to weave his way through seas of people to get to the other side of the station. Still, he thinks major destinations such as Madison Square Garden should be close to rail terminals, and hopes the sides work out their differences. "This would be a useful way in which the city of New York, which now has a considerable amount of planning capacity, could work with Amtrak, the Long Island Rail Road and NJ Transit to take advantage of this lease negotiation and improve those conditions," Robins said. "If the railroads find that there are inadequacies, they should be addressed."
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by AlM* on Sun May 19 20:52:12 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Certainly the old Penn Station was aesthetically far nicer. But in terms of function, how exactly is Madison Square Garden getting in the way? Where are the traffic flow bottlenecks caused by the Garden? The bottlenecks I see are one and two levels below the street.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by J Trainloco* on Sun May 19 21:27:40 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The best chance to move MSG already slipped through everyone's fingers. MSG is now doing a $1 Billion rennovation. Not exactly easy to get the Dolans to tear something like that down now.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Bill West* on Sun May 19 21:48:50 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by AlM on Sun May 19 20:52:12 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d It's the rabbit's warren of offices covering half of the Amtrak floor that is the problem. On the LIRR floor only about half is developed and that is split between office and public space. In the old station there were 3-4 above street floors of staff/office space along each side and the west end. The old service building on 31st ought to be turned into a crew and admin building. Also the undeveloped part of the LIRR level could be floored in as a commuter waiting area. Bill
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by AlM* on Sun May 19 21:54:20 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Bill West on Sun May 19 21:48:50 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Exactly. I'm just not understanding where MSG comes into this.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Grand concourse* on Sun May 19 21:54:55 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by J Trainloco on Sun May 19 21:27:40 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yup. The chance to evict them is gone. Plus where would they move to? Back to the original madison sq area and bulldoze the park?
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by RockParkMan* on Sun May 19 22:08:01 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d nothing will change. MSG will survive thanks to greed and corruption.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Sun May 19 22:15:58 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Never going to happen. MSG will stand there until they tear it down....and the new one will be built on the same site. They'll never surrender that location.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by RockParkMan* on Sun May 19 22:34:33 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun May 19 22:15:58 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Thanks to corruption which is what an empowered business sector does best.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun May 19 22:49:52 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How will moving MSG translate into a "roomier" NYP for the trains, eh? They should find one of those underutilized plots downtown, build Union Station there and put a new MSG on top of that.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Grand concourse* on Mon May 20 02:14:30 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by RockParkMan on Sun May 19 22:34:33 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So where should the knicks and rangers play then, if not there?
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Mon May 20 02:37:06 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Grand concourse on Mon May 20 02:14:30 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Hempstead. It IS the Cablevision family after all. :)
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by chud1* on Mon May 20 02:57:39 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by J Trainloco on Sun May 19 21:27:40 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d they are getting ready to da part 3 of da renovation of MSG. this will be da last part of da renovation. my younger brother and his son works at MSG. chud1
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by LuchAAA* on Mon May 20 03:09:27 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun May 19 22:15:58 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The renovated MSG was gutted. It's basically a new building. It will be there another 25 years or more.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by LuchAAA* on Mon May 20 03:15:46 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Skylights? Signage? Sounds like they are making any excuse to bash MSG. Maybe if they get rid of some of the stores to clear way for more stairs to the platforms, they would not have so many problems. Waiting until last minute for track assignments is another issue, one that caused a lot of the strain, and has nothing to do with MSG.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by piyer* on Mon May 20 03:19:14 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by AlM on Sun May 19 21:54:20 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If I'm reading the report right, the issues they have with MSG are that it is restricting entrance options / visibility, and preventing natural daylight from reaching the station area. And, to a degree, the building restricts vertical expansion options - such as raising the arrival / departure boards above head height. I would also imagine that support columns present limits on possible alterations.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Olog-hai* on Mon May 20 03:35:53 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by LuchAAA on Mon May 20 03:15:46 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Sounds like they are making any excuse to bash MSG Compared to what was there before, of course it gets bashed. Think of it as the al-Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by piyer* on Mon May 20 03:45:20 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The following is a "what-if" fantasy proposal. It is _NOT_ based on financial reality in any way, shape, or form. Please keep that in mind when commenting on it. Thank you. :o) Were money no object, the solution to the MSG / Penn Station problem would be a (figuratively) simple one to solve. The new MSG would be built in the Hudson River along the bulkhead line between the LIRR's yard and the convention center: roughly 30th to 36th streets. This location would be virgin land, thus no building demolitions to clear the area. Its waterside site would allow new waterfront green space, as well as ferry / water taxi access to the sports complex. In addition to replacing the current MSG's event spaces, you could have new venues, such as an aquatics center and a marina for the boat shows. The new Penn Station would occupy its current location, but it would also sprawl further north and south. The new southern platforms would tie into a new Hudson River tunnel and serve Amtrak. The new northern platforms would be for the LIRR, while the original platforms would be redesigned to best serve all three railroads. Wider platforms with increased access would be present throughout. There might not be that many additional tracks, but there should be more flexibility and better crowd handling. If it weren't for those pesky things called subways, the new Penn Station would be a twin level affair like Grand Central Terminal, but even fantasy has its limits. ;o)
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Olog-hai* on Mon May 20 03:55:29 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by piyer on Mon May 20 03:45:20 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If it weren't for those pesky things called subways No; those had nothing to do with how deep the PRR chose to build their station, nor the size they chose to build it (they kept Exchange Place Terminal in Jersey City open for another 50 years after NYP started operations). The 7^th Avenue subway opened seven years after NYP opened. The 8^th Avenue IND line opened in 1932, which was 22 years after NYP opened. The only pre-existing lines adjacent to NYP were elevated, those being the 6^th and 9^th Avenue IRT els.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by piyer* on Mon May 20 04:18:11 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Olog-hai on Mon May 20 03:55:29 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I was actually referring to subways getting in the way of double decking today / in the future. Of course, if they all cross above the Penn Station tracks, then I guess double decking is possible.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by LuchAAA* on Mon May 20 05:22:29 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Olog-hai on Mon May 20 03:35:53 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They could have built the new MSG next to the current one, over the airspace on 32nd Street, with cars running underneath.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Mon May 20 06:39:34 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I read about this a while ago: Part of the problem was, back when the old Penn Station was torn down in 1963-'66 to make way for the current MSG and 2 Penn Plaza, the neighborhood surrounding it was much different and also (like a lot of Manhattan at that time) rapidly deteriorating. Without the current MSG, the old Penn Station likely would have become a haven for crime in the late 1960s, '70s and '80s that would have been many times worse than the Penn Station that we now know, basically because of how massive that station was. Add to it the old MSG on 8th Avenue between 49th and 50th was very rapidly becoming obsolete (for sports, it could have lived on for another 15 years or so as a concert venue and for smaller sporting events along with the current MSG), and it was a no-brainer to do what they did with MSG back then, especially since the only way the old MSG could have been modernized would have been to expand it from 48th-51st Streets and 8th-9th Avenues. Now, I would be looking as some have suggested at 9th-10th Avenues from 28th-30th Streets for a new MSG about 10-15 years from now that could be built high enough up to hold 30-35,000 (plus sufficient luxury boxes) for basketball and allow MSG to even make runs at getting the Final Four, as 35,000 would probably be big enough for the NCAA to put it in a new, enlarged MSG. The renovated MSG buys MSG 15 years or so to make such a move on their scale. If that happens, THEN I would keep 2 Penn Plaza where it is, but rebuild a smaller version of the old Penn Station next to it (including being able to build on top of it, the failure to do so being what doomed the original version) while keeping the existing entrances.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Joe V* on Mon May 20 06:50:54 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by piyer on Mon May 20 03:45:20 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You can't build platforms to the north without condemning buildings. Condemning building to the south is what Amtrak wants to do.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by AlM* on Mon May 20 08:11:57 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by piyer on Mon May 20 03:19:14 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d OK, those are pretty minor things. And I've never found the bottleneck to be the entrances into the station. The LIRR entrance at 34th helped a lot. To me, the bottlenecks are getting to the tracks. As for natural light, yes, esthetically NYP stinks. I'm not arguing that in the slightest.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by AlM* on Mon May 20 08:14:02 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by piyer on Mon May 20 04:18:11 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The subways are 1 level down and the tracks are 3 levels down.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon May 20 08:47:53 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by J Trainloco on Sun May 19 21:27:40 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They shouldn't fall for the sunk cost fallacy.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon May 20 08:48:20 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by RockParkMan on Sun May 19 22:08:01 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d +1 :-(
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon May 20 08:51:51 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Olog-hai on Mon May 20 03:35:53 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The structure you're thinking of is called the Dome of the Rock.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by AlM* on Mon May 20 09:03:53 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 20 08:47:53 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The sunk cost fallacy may have no value in economics but it may in legal terms. If MSG were to be denied any lease renewal at all, they might be able to say that they should have been given a warning before they did their massive renovation. It all depends what their current lease says.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by FYBklyn1959* on Mon May 20 11:15:57 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Grand concourse on Mon May 20 02:14:30 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Just a WAG: Knicks bunk w/ the Nets at Barclays, while Rangers bunk w/ Nets at Prudential?
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by FYBklyn1959* on Mon May 20 11:16:48 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon May 20 11:15:57 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d D'OH!! Rangers bunk w/ Devils at Prudential. Guess you can tell tthat I am not a hockey fan! :)
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Olog-hai* on Mon May 20 12:04:33 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 20 08:51:51 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Thanks for showing your belief system to us. The mosque I'm referring to also sits on the Temple site.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Olog-hai* on Mon May 20 12:05:12 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 20 06:39:34 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Without the current MSG, the old Penn Station likely would have become a haven for crime More so than it is today? Nonsense.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by seabeachexpress* on Mon May 20 12:38:54 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d MSG is just about done with multi-million dollar rebuild of the entire arena. It's not going anywhere now.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by The silence* on Mon May 20 12:50:27 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by piyer on Mon May 20 04:18:11 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The subways thread above the LIRR concourse level.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by JohnL* on Mon May 20 13:04:36 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by AlM on Sun May 19 20:52:12 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Having looked at the circulation diagrams and the way the buildings are stacked, I think it would be useful to turn the Felt Forum or whatever it's called these days back to railroad use, to move office/crew/admin space out of the way and improve circulation. Plus, on the main concourse level, I think an inordinate amount of space is given over to retail and dining that could be used to improve circulation.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Mon May 20 13:10:38 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by LuchAAA on Mon May 20 03:09:27 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The current MSG has occupied this site more than any former incarnation of the arena since the first one 130 years ago. So long that most don't even remember the one at 50th/8th.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by J Trainloco* on Mon May 20 13:37:14 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 20 08:47:53 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The 'sunk cost fallacy' has nothing to do with this one.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris* on Mon May 20 14:10:15 2013, in response to Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by WillD on Sun May 19 20:45:16 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d A little late now....they just completely redid Madison Square Garden. The time for this was BEFORE that was done.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon May 20 15:27:33 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by AlM on Mon May 20 09:03:53 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If the state is not obligated to renew the lease, they've got nothing. Fixtures remain the property of the landowner and not the lessee.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Mon May 20 15:39:15 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Olog-hai on Mon May 20 12:04:33 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You need to be institutionalized.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by chud1* on Mon May 20 15:53:09 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 20 08:51:51 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d my younger brother work on that building as a carpenter, before going to MSG. chud1
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by chud1* on Mon May 20 15:55:43 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Mon May 20 11:16:48 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d what about da rangers go to da izod (formerly da brendan byre areaa. chud1
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by AlM* on Mon May 20 16:07:18 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 20 15:39:15 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d ??? For once Olog seems to be correct. The al Aqsa Mosque appears to also be on the Temple Mount.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by chud1* on Mon May 20 16:19:45 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by seabeachexpress on Mon May 20 12:38:54 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d its multi-billion renovation. chud1
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by AlM* on Mon May 20 16:44:54 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 20 15:27:33 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Ah, but it turns out it's not a lease. MSG owns the property. All that needs to be renewed is the operating permit. I think NYC would be on shaky ground to not renew that as long as MSG is operating a safe facility. It would be like not renewing an operating permit on a movie theater. http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/09/madison-square-garden-says-it-will-not-be-uprooted-from-penn-station/
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by chud1* on Mon May 20 17:12:02 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 20 13:10:38 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d i remember da one on 50th st and 8th ave. had da nedicks hot dog place in front. chud1.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by G1RavagesDad* on Mon May 20 19:11:00 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by chud1 on Mon May 20 15:55:43 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Sorry.....but Madison Square Garden is as much a vital part of New York City as the Empire State Building. There has got to be a way to modernize Penn Station without doing away with MSG.
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by murray1575* on Mon May 20 21:22:36 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 20 13:10:38 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I do. I went to the circus there and also went to two Rangers home games in the 1966-67 season (the last full season it was open). We got tickets for $2.00 each! I remember riding Arnines on the E from Roosevelt Ave. to get there (to keep this on topic). The ventilation was so bad you could see a big cloud of smoke hanging over the ice by the third period (smoking was allowed in those days).
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Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake
Posted by RockParkMan* on Mon May 20 22:17:13 2013, in response to Re: Move MSG for Penn Station's Sake, posted by G1RavagesDad on Mon May 20 19:11:00 2013.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You're a fucking idiot sports fan.
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