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| (1188925) | |
Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by mberto40 on Thu Nov 29 10:46:06 2012 I have a question, on the pre dual contract maps, there is a station on the fulton street el for Broadway Junction, which I think was called Manhattan Junction, or East New York or... I looks as if the station was removed with the tripling of the line from Nostrand Ave to Hinsdale, is this ture? And, if yes, then why? |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012, in response to Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by mberto40 on Thu Nov 29 10:46:06 2012.  Interesting stuff. Apparently trains could run from Fulton Ferry to Broadway Ferry without reversing. It was an incredibly flexible junction. Anything from the east could run on any line to the west. The Fulton St line also had a yard at Alabama and Pitkin which must have disappeared early. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:11:20 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. A closeup of the area in detail:
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Nov 29 15:22:00 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. The Fulton St line also had a yard at Alabama and Pitkin which must have disappeared early.I think that was mentioned in one of the previous threads about the Fulton El. It was apparently gone by 1924, as show by the empty lots here: Link |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by GIS Man on Thu Nov 29 15:22:40 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. Those numbers in circles - are they route numbers? If so they are a different code from those used later by the BMT. Does anyone have the complete list?Thanks, Bob P.S. See the note in the lower left corner. Pitkin Av's house numbers still continue from those of Eastern Pkwy. Also, once Eastern Pkwy Extension was opened, it originally turned right onto Bushwick Av, and also included what is now Highland Blvd. Lots on the north side of Highland Blvd near Barbey St also front on Robert St, which carries house numbers in the 2500's originally from Eastern Pkwy. Bob |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Nov 29 15:24:02 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. Thanks for maps! Interesting that some stations were removed and others kept (Hinsdale St is not there, an "Eastern Parkway" used to be there). |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Nyctransitman on Thu Nov 29 15:26:32 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. I like the former spelling of Van Sicklen Avenue back in the day. I was always wondering why some older printings of the subway map I would see on the walls in subway restaurants always had the spelling of Van Sicklen Avenue with the K. I'm guessing the City changed Van Sicklen Avenue to Van Siclen Avenue at some point so not to be confused with Van Sicklen Street in Southwest Brooklyn. Would someone know the year of the change in the spelling? |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Nov 29 15:45:10 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. Apparently trains could run from Fulton Ferry to Broadway Ferry without reversing.They did for a while in the 1890's. Service east of Manhattan Jct was provided by another train going between Cypress Hills and City Line. Service east of Manhattan Jct was provided by trolley cars during off peak hours. The routing was not popular and was abandoned within a year. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 15:55:14 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by GIS Man on Thu Nov 29 15:22:40 2012. Not sure what the number circles are. BRT did not have number routes in 1900. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 15:56:04 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by 3-9 on Thu Nov 29 15:24:02 2012. I believe that was the original western terminal. The map states Eastern Parkway was an old name for Pitkin Ave. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 15:57:48 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Nov 29 15:45:10 2012. The track configuration was certainly flexible, though a choking point. Literally anything from City Line, Cypress Hills or Canarsie could operate to any other line's terminal, east or west. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by GIS Man on Thu Nov 29 16:13:21 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 15:56:04 2012. And I've seen even older maps where tbe entire length from Grand Army Plaza going east is labelled "Sackett St" - an extension of the street in Park Slope. However, the house numbers today restart at 5th Av for Berkeley Pl and again at Grand Army Plaza for Eastern Pkwy.Bob Also, Strauss St, formerly Douglass St, has house numbers which continue those of St Johns Pl, which begins at 5th Av and the current Douglass St. Again the house numbers restart at 5th Av. Bob |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 16:17:03 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by GIS Man on Thu Nov 29 16:13:21 2012. I believe the current Eastern Parkway (not the extension) was built at the same time as the IRT subway. The extension came later. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Nov 29 16:21:46 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by GIS Man on Thu Nov 29 15:22:40 2012. Those numbers in circles - are they route numbers? If so they are a different code from those used later by the BMT. Does anyone have the complete list?The numbers and the map are from "The Tracks of New York" Number 2, Brooklyn Elevated Railroads 1910. On the inside front cover is a list of routes as they were in 1910. 1) Brighton Beach Line 2) Broadway-Bklyn Line 3) Broadway Ferry Shuttle 4) Canarsie Line 5) Culver Line 6) fifth Avenue Line 7) Fulton Street Line 8) Lexington Av Line 9) Myrtle Av Line 10) Rockaway Beach Line 11) Sea Beach Line 12) West End Line The list was obviously revised after the implementation of the Dual Contracts. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 16:25:40 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Nov 29 16:21:46 2012. Cool, I didn't know that. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 29 16:31:27 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Nyctransitman on Thu Nov 29 15:26:32 2012. I don't think they ever changed the spelling, the typo just propagated. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Nov 29 16:33:24 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 16:25:40 2012. Chris: I didn't know it either. I've had that book for many years and have often referred to the track maps it has. I had always believed that the BMT route numbering system came in with the "D" Types in 1925. Thats why we need young people on this board to point these things out.Larry,RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 29 16:33:51 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 16:17:03 2012. No. Eastern Parkway was built long before the IRT Subway. It was built by Olmstead and Vaux after they built Prospect Park (after they built Central Park). The extension was completed by circa 1924. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 29 16:35:54 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by GIS Man on Thu Nov 29 16:13:21 2012. I believe that was only conjectural. The streets were laid out for future construction but not yet built by the time Eastern Parkway was built instead. Interesting about Strauss Street. That would match the pattern of Union Street turning at ENY Ave. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 16:41:04 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Nov 29 16:33:24 2012. LOL.That feeling when you realize you're probably not in the "young people" group anymore .... |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Nov 29 19:13:22 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 15:57:48 2012. I know it's kind of academic, since the Fulton El was demolished, but I think it was kind of a mistake for the Fulton El not to have a station connecting it with Broadway Junction after the rebuild. Without that, people who wanted to transfer between the Broadway and/or Jamaica els had to make an extra transfer to or from Atlantic Ave. I know the station would have been close to Atlantic and it wouldn't have meant much for people commuting to/from Manhattan, but I don't think it would have been that big a deal for the convenience. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Nov 29 20:12:37 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Nov 29 15:45:10 2012. The Manhattan Junction loop was closed because it diverted too many trains from service to City Line and Cypress Hills. So, yes, you could say it was unpopular! |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by GIS Man on Fri Nov 30 08:33:10 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Nov 29 16:21:46 2012. Thanks, Larry.Bob |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by rushhoursardine on Fri Nov 30 10:33:24 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 16:41:04 2012. I get the same feeling when I admit that I rode the Myrtle Avenue el as a kid. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 13:30:02 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by rushhoursardine on Fri Nov 30 10:33:24 2012. That's nothing. I was a MOTORMAN on the Myrtle El! |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 13:31:50 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by 3-9 on Thu Nov 29 19:13:22 2012. I agree, and I have often wondered why a station at Bway Jct was not included in the dual contracts rebuild. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Nov 30 14:38:47 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by 3-9 on Thu Nov 29 19:13:22 2012. Without that, people who wanted to transfer between the Broadway and/or Jamaica els had to make an extra transfer to or from Atlantic Ave.You are forgetting the services that were available at the time of the Dual Contracts. To get from downtown Brooklyn to Jamaica Ave, passengers took the Lexington Ave El. Why would they want to take the Fulton St El to transfer at Manhattan Junction? To get from Delancy St to the outer reaches of the Fulton St El, they would take the Broadway-Brooklyn Local, which went to Canarsie, and change at Atlantic Ave. It was still a single transfer. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Nov 30 14:50:47 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Nov 29 16:21:46 2012. Except for the 1 being the Brighton Line, this is not the same numbering system used from 1925-67 by the BMT. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 15:18:30 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 13:30:02 2012. Then Ed D sez hello ... just heard from him a couple of days ago ... :) |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Fri Nov 30 15:31:58 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 15:18:30 2012. Please go over to the other board and answer my question about whiskey. The responses have been desultory at best. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 15:38:44 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by cortelyounext on Fri Nov 30 15:31:58 2012. Be on my way in a few ... :) |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 15:52:41 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 15:18:30 2012. Ed was the only M/M on vacation relief that I had to worry about picking BMT eastern runs ahead of me since most of the other newbies didn't want any part of steels, R-9s or Qs. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by mberto40 on Fri Nov 30 16:08:58 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Nov 30 14:38:47 2012. Well just saya person worked at A&S, and they lived in Woodheaven, 104th street station on the Brooklyn-Broadway line, the Fulton Street El is right there and if they needed to change, there was no interconnection between the two after the Dual Contracts. Also, since Broadway Junction was (and still is) a major trandfer hub, you would think the powers that be would have kept a station at that location on the Fulton El |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 16:19:50 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by mberto40 on Fri Nov 30 16:08:58 2012. As another poster pointed out a person who worked at A & S could walk a block over to Myrtle and take the Lexington El which in rush hours went all the way to 111 St. In non rush hours, Lex service terminated at E/Pky where an across platform transfer could be made to the Jamaica Line. A problem would arise if a person worked in the area of the Albee Theater and was not convenient to the Myrtle. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Nov 30 16:34:31 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. Right, I keep forgetting that Van Siclen Avenue used to be a side-platform station.... |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 16:38:14 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 15:52:41 2012. You'll be pleased to know that he's still kicking in Montana and making trouble out there. Shall I hook you two up? |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 17:49:22 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 16:38:14 2012. We still touch base every now and again. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 30 17:53:35 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu Nov 29 16:21:46 2012. As long as we are talking about this, can someone tell something about the Park Avenue el demolished in 1901, which I knew nothing about. Where did it run and why was it demolished so early? |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 30 17:56:07 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 29 16:33:51 2012. Now only the block between Broadway and Bushwick has the extension on the sign. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 30 17:57:01 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 29 16:35:54 2012. Strauss Street was renamed after the Titanic disaster. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Nov 30 17:57:32 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 13:30:02 2012. big deal! I was both a cop& a m/m on the myrtle back in 1968,so there. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Fri Nov 30 18:50:21 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 29 14:04:52 2012. the yard lasted into the `30`s,i,ve seen photos of it. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 19:53:59 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by randyo on Fri Nov 30 17:49:22 2012. Good good ... Just wanted to be sure. He's still up to no good as usual. :) |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 30 19:57:12 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Nov 30 17:57:32 2012. Geez ... no WONDER it got shut down ... they'd let ANYBODY play with their electric train set. LIRR people got wind of it and took the toys away. :) |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Nov 30 20:09:56 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Nov 30 14:38:47 2012. That works for downtown Brooklyn, but what about if Jamaica riders wanted to reach the Brighton, on their way to CI? Or for the areas south of Fulton, where the Fulton El was more convenient? |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Dec 1 11:52:49 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by GIS Man on Thu Nov 29 15:22:40 2012. AFAIK they were in no way official numbers. They were numbers used by the authors of the Track Book to identify the services then existing and where they went. I haven't seen these numbers used anywhere else. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 1 14:22:59 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by tunnelrat on Fri Nov 30 17:57:32 2012. I still have you beat. I was a C/R on Myrtle in 1967! |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Dec 1 14:26:24 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 1 14:22:59 2012. well,I rode the myrtle ave EL in the spring,summer,fall&winter of 1957.I rode the platform in a thunderstorm&a blizzard. so go ahead & top that! |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 1 15:35:10 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Dec 1 14:26:24 2012. I rode the Myrtle for the first time in 1956 on gate cars. It was the same day that I rode for the first and only time the Fulton St el from Atlantic all the way out to Lefferts. That was on a Sunday and there was a single track operation in effect on K2 tk between Grant and Lefferts to allow for preparation for the eventual IND takeover. "Mainline" Fulton trains were operating only between E/Pky and Grant and the single track train was a shuttle. One of the C types I rode that day was 1501, one of the first 2 C types converted. Although I didn't pay attention to the number at the time, I remember the unique center doors in the cars which only 1500 and 1501 had and since 1500 had been scrapped in 1955, the unit had to have been 1501. The other C types I rode that day were conventional units and that was the first and only time I rode the Cs since they were scrapped almost immediately after the old portion of the Fulton el was shut down. Another odd thing I recall about that day was that although at the time the multis ruled the 14 St Line, the 14 St train I rode when transferring off Myrtle was an R-16 and the bulkhead door window was still able to be opened. |
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Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 1 15:58:33 2012, in response to Re: Broadway Junction Fulton El, posted by randyo on Sat Dec 1 15:35:10 2012. 1500+1501 were the BMT test types for the "C" class. They were winter tested on the B'way-B'klyn/Canarsie line from the end of January to March of 1922. They had subway running lights because they ran over the WillyB to Canal Street. After that, they were returned to the Coney Island shops. After some design changes (most notably the doors!), the rest of the fleet was built. I do remember seeing 1501 at Eastern Parkway, so it must have been a weekend trip I took with my great-aunt, during school Christmas vacation in late December, 1955. It was different than the rest of the "C" cars. Only took me 50 years to find out all about the "C's". |
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