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| PCC and other Trolley Question????? (1179686) | |
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| (1179689) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Gene B. on Wed Oct 3 17:59:12 2012, in response to PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 17:52:34 2012. I love the Los Angeles picture with the double width tracks to accommodate both the yellow cars and the red cars. Is the location Santa Monica Blvd. in Hollywood? |
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| (1179693) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 18:06:41 2012, in response to PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 17:52:34 2012. I'm not sure of the location, and my eyes are to poor to see the dual gauge. I thought it was single gauge, 4' 8.5".You have me at a disadvantage. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1179695) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 18:15:30 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Gene B. on Wed Oct 3 17:59:12 2012. The P E car is #306 following along East 7Th Street as the Long Beach Car approaches the Main Street Terminal. |
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| (1179701) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Oct 3 18:55:42 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 18:06:41 2012. Pacific Electric was standard gauge, but LA streetcar gauge was 42". |
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| (1179705) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Joe on Wed Oct 3 19:53:41 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Oct 3 18:55:42 2012. To Avid Reader:Regarding single-end and double-end PCC cars, I am inclined to declare that more than 95% of the PCC's built 1937-1952 for U.S. and Canadian cities were single-end. Recall that the PCC designers were in a contest with the popularity of buses. A single-end car could have forward-facing comfortable seats. No space would be lost for a rear platform and alternate motorman's position. Terminal operations could be simplified. --- Without looking at PCC history books, I would say that the few double-end cars were built for Illinois Terminal (St. Louis to Granite City) and Dallas. Some Dallas cars went to Boston. Cities made efforts to install loops, but the single-end car was attractive even before the PCC's began to be developed, as shown by the loops on Flatbush Avenue and other heavy Brooklyn routes. ---- If one looks at photos of current operations in Poland, you will see many single-end operations, noted by the absence of left-side doors. ---- I think the question is germane to light-rail construction in recent years. To me, the both-side stairwells in Sacramento and San Diego are not only a waste of space but a bit dangerous. (During laudable deceleration in Sacramento, I almost pitched down such a stairwell.) --- On Vienna's Ring, the new ultra-low-floor cars gain a few extra seats in their narrow configuration by having only right-side doors. I believe most of Vienna and Munich are single-end. --- In Washington, the introduction of PCC's necessitated the construction of loops. Most terminals received modern waiting rooms. However, I recall seeing a dead northbound 82 car being towed north to Brookland loop just to get it faced south towards the carbarn. Hudson-Bergen and other double-end systems have the advantage of frequent turnbacks. Thanks for asking an interesting question! Joe |
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| (1179709) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Joe on Wed Oct 3 20:06:21 2012, in response to PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 17:52:34 2012. To Avid Reader:On a guess, and I could be wrong, the first PCC cars receiving pantographs were probably those built for Belgium and the Netherlands prior to 1950. Under Marshall Plan redevelopment aid (and I can be corrected), not-yet-Communist Czechoslovakia received unlimited provision to use PCC patents, whereby the tremendous PCC production, with pantographs, by Tatra and Konstal. ---- In the U.S., I believe, the wire changes in Boston led to some PCC's receiving pantographs. Date? About 1976? --- All subject to correction and improvement. Joe |
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| (1179710) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Atomsk on Wed Oct 3 20:09:59 2012, in response to PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 17:52:34 2012. Just counting PCC streetcars, built in North America, there were 78 double ended cars, out of nearly 5000 total PCCs built. The breakdown goes:15 - San Francisco (some still running) 30 - Pacific Electric (were any preserved?) 25 - Dallas (later went to Boston) 8 - Illinois Terminal (later Shaker Heights) I know of very few PCCs with pantographs. Pittsburgh used them on some lines, and cars in the Newark subway as well. The design of the overhead wire governs which type of current collector a car uses. You can only use a trolley pole with "variable tension" wires (in this case, "tension" refers to the physical "pull" on the wires, and does not mean the synonym for voltage). If you have "constant tension" wire, you need a pantograph. Since most trolley lines used the simpler (and cheaper) variable tension system they got by just fine with trolley poles. When trolley lines became "light rail systems", they usually upgraded their infrastructure to the more reliable but more complex constant tension overhead. |
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| (1179711) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by asgard on Wed Oct 3 20:14:13 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Wed Oct 3 20:09:59 2012. Philadelphia Suburban had double ended cars with PCC style bodies but non PCC trucks. They also had double ended Brilliners. |
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| (1179714) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by mr mabstoa on Wed Oct 3 20:47:00 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Joe on Wed Oct 3 19:53:41 2012. I remember Dan Lawrence showing me how the Baltimore PCC's could be controlled from the rear seat for small reverse moves.Pretty neat! |
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| (1179728) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Wed Oct 3 21:28:38 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Wed Oct 3 20:09:59 2012. When the Glendale-Burbank PE line was discontinued in 1955 (which also marked the end of the Subway Terminal building), the 30 PCCs (which were only 15 years old) were sold to a railway somewhere in South America. AFAIK, none were preserved :( If they could've held out a little longer, the Orange Empire Railway Museum (originally the Orange Empire Trolley Museum) would've been up and running, and I'm sure they would have acquired one. Alas, they didn't open until 1956. They do have 3 ex-LARY/LATL/LAMTA PCCs, but those are all single-end. |
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| (1179737) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Oct 3 21:48:12 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by mr mabstoa on Wed Oct 3 20:47:00 2012. All Baltimore cars that were single ended had some form of backup control. The United Railways (Precursor of Baltimore Transit) began single-ending Semi-convertible cars in the late 1920's, so either the former double end controller was retained, or a or a smaller controller and brake stand was used at the new rear end. The doors were also switched so the double rear doors were moved to the front and the single door was moved to the back and had a treadle added that opened the door. The 1930 Peter Witts and all PCC cars had a backup controller at the rear under a removal seat.It's hard to back up a 46 foot PCC car from the front end and see where you are going, so BSM has decided to use two persons (one at the back and one in the front, operating the car) for a backup move. |
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| (1179753) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Oct 3 23:25:17 2012, in response to PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 17:52:34 2012. PCC's in Newark and Cleveland were equipped with pantographs. |
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| (1179754) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Oct 3 23:25:30 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Joe on Wed Oct 3 20:06:21 2012. In the U.S., I believe, the wire changes in Boston led to some PCC's receiving pantographs. Date? About 1976?I believe you're thinking of the MBTA's PCC rebuild program which began in 1976, but none of those cars received pantographs. Boston had two of its PCC streetcars which were equipped with pantographs - car 3036 was removed from revenue service in the early 1970's and had a pantograph installed to test tunnel clearances prior to the arrival of the Boeing LRV's, and restored car 3295 received a pantograph in the 1990's to operate on the current Green Line system (but unfortunately was shunted onto the track at Boylston station shortly afterward and made into a static exhibit). |
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| (1179755) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by mr mabstoa on Wed Oct 3 23:33:52 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Oct 3 21:48:12 2012. It was pretty neat when you showed me that.Its great to read about stuff but better to see it for yourself in the real world! |
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| (1179760) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Oct 3 23:56:44 2012, in response to PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 17:52:34 2012. The other true double end PCC's were the SFMuni "Torpedos" from 1948. Several of the survivors have just been extensively rebuilt for service on a new line that does not use loops.As far as pantographs use, probably the first US design PCC's to have them were the ex-DC cars that went to Sarajevo, Yugoslavia in 1960. Most were wrecked and/or retired by the 80's. One car, #71 survived the civil war and is part of the Sarajevo historic fleet. Not technically in the US, but they were US PCC's using pans. Same with the ex-LA narrow guage cars that went to Chile. Pittsburgh I beleive was the first US PCC operator to use pans, but Shaker did the same around the same time, I'd have to look at my books for the actual dates. There were some other Early european PCC operators that had locally built PCC's (or made from St. Louis Car kits) with pans, notably Den Haag, and Belgrade about 1950. |
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| (1179761) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 3 23:59:25 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by RailBus63 on Wed Oct 3 23:25:17 2012. Cleveland when? All the images I have seen show Blue/Green Line PCCs running with trolley pole under catenary wire, which was the same wire the pantograph-equipped Red Line cars used.Newark NJ's PCC cars only got the pantographs towards the end of their service life, when the wires were converted to catenary from single-hung trolley wire. They retained the trolley poles in the rear. |
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| (1179775) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 4 01:21:21 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 3 23:59:25 2012. actually there is one pic on nycsubway.org showing PCC w/ a pan. However from the date (1981) it may well have been a test for the soon to be delivered Bredas. |
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| (1179780) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Oct 4 02:14:01 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 4 01:21:21 2012. Here is the photo in question. |
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| (1179781) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Oct 4 02:16:59 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by RailBus63 on Wed Oct 3 23:25:17 2012. Also Pittsburgh: NYCSubway.org Img #91449 |
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| (1179791) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Atomsk on Thu Oct 4 05:31:45 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by asgard on Wed Oct 3 20:14:13 2012. Whoops, yes, I skipped them for some reason. Adding 24 cars in Philly makes 102 double-enders. Actually, the Red Arrow cars did have PCC trucks, but due to the line's wider-than-standard gauge, they used the B3 type, instead of the more common B2. |
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| (1179792) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Oct 4 05:49:30 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Thu Oct 4 05:31:45 2012. Just wanted to say THANKS to you two for this! Nice to have some real rail stuff here! :) |
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| (1179808) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Oct 4 09:21:53 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Oct 3 18:55:42 2012. That's great information to have. I had been under the impression that LA Street car was a carry over of the Pacific Electric System as displayed by these photos.  
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| (1179825) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by MR RT on Thu Oct 4 13:26:56 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Thu Oct 4 05:31:45 2012. Red Arrow PCC type cars are called Louies, two are at Branford 18 & 21 |
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| (1179827) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by MR RT on Thu Oct 4 13:28:58 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Wed Oct 3 20:09:59 2012. One of the IT eight (451) is at Warehouse Point ... I have operated it many times. It will soon come out from the shop with a much needed paint job. |
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| (1179828) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Oct 4 13:46:14 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Oct 4 09:21:53 2012. Nope, 2 different systems. Only thing in common was the shared track on some downtown L. A. streets (Hill St from Sunset? down to Venice Blvd, where PE turned onto Venice, and LARy continued down south of downtown. Also on San Pedro St between 7th St and Olympic Blvd (PE went on San Pedro between 6th and 7th, coming from the elevated station next to the PE building, was joined by the LARy "S" line, turning from 7th onto San Pedro, then PE turned east on Olympic and went down to the 4 track ROW, while LARy stayed on San Pedro. I'm sure there were others that I can't recall. |
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| (1179839) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 4 16:10:53 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 4 01:21:21 2012. Thanks. No left-side doors on that PCC either. |
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| (1179840) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 4 16:12:24 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Joe on Wed Oct 3 19:53:41 2012. Pacific Electric also had double end PCCs and is I recall, there were 10 double end PCCs built for San Francisco and I believe they were called "torpedoes." These are not to be confused with the "Magic Carpet" cars which had a number of PCC components but were not referred to as PCCs since San Fran Muni, for some reason, refused to pay the committee PCC royalties. |
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| (1179863) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Oct 4 20:02:23 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Thu Oct 4 05:31:45 2012. Nope, Red Arrow 11-24's trucks weren't B3's and weren't even PCC designs. The Red Arrow 11-24 used a then current design conventional outside frame truck, and heavier duty than standard controls. Not quite a PCC, but used alot of the same parts at least in the bodywork.B3 trucks were used by Pittsburgh, Detroit, Johnstown, SFMuni, Illinois Terminal. The Tatra and BN trucks built in Europe were based on the B3. |
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| (1179865) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Oct 4 20:06:02 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Oct 3 23:59:25 2012. Only the ex-Twin Cities PCC's at Shaker got pans, the Pullmans and hte ex-SLPS cars never did, but they were being retired as the two lines were rebuilt. The 51-70+3+27 hung in service until 1985. |
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| (1179866) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Thu Oct 4 20:06:50 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?, posted by WillD on Thu Oct 4 02:14:01 2012. 56 is still around at Metka's PCC farm near Johnstown with 58 and several dozen other PCC's. |
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| (1179873) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 4 21:23:40 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 4 16:10:53 2012. no, they ran British style between downtown and the junction w/the Rapid. |
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| (1179874) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 4 21:41:55 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Oct 4 21:23:40 2012. I saw pics of that. (You coulda said CNW-style too.) |
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| (1179916) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Jace on Fri Oct 5 13:08:01 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Wed Oct 3 23:56:44 2012. The one 'true' PCC in Tokyo, 1953 built 5501 was both double ended and had pans. The other cars in this series, 5502-5507, were very similar but with different trucks (the 5501 had B-3 trucks, the later cars had non-PCC trucks). Some if not all of these cars later had their pans replaced with Tokyo's standard bow collectors. |
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| (1179948) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Oct 5 16:10:41 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Jace on Fri Oct 5 13:08:01 2012. I forgot about Bow Collectors The Collector is reversible. |
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| (1180574) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Joe on Tue Oct 9 20:52:35 2012, in response to PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Oct 3 17:52:34 2012. Thanks for posting the photos of MBTA 3329 and 3334, purchased from Dallas. Thanks also to someone in the thread for posting the photos of the Pacific Electric double-end cars with double-flow doors front and center, as we had on Broadway with the Huffliners. They always seemed better than cars with a single rear exit.---- On a different topic, I was surprised to see today that Riga, Latvia, uses long trolley poles rather than pantographs. A visitor posted on Drehscheibe an excellent series taken 7 October (with autumn leaves!). The older cars are PCC's. I haven't figured out why the trolley poles are so lengthy. --- The Dreischeibe URL's are specific to the page, so a link is problematic. Go to www.drehscheibe-foren.de, then look for Strassenbahn Forum. Then go down the list of topics until you see the word Riga. Carltram has posted 25 photos of the Riga system. It appears that one route has received new equipment, new wire, and pantographs. |
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| (1180705) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Oct 11 10:53:16 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Oct 4 09:21:53 2012. Well, now the only hope for Double Ended PCC cars, will fall on the shoulders of MTH, or Williams by Bachmann, to produce a new version for the enthusiast. |
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| (1180723) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Evan on Thu Oct 11 14:31:38 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Joe on Tue Oct 9 20:52:35 2012. Those do seem to be longer than usual poles. They need to be long enough to maintain contact where the wire is highest. So somewhere on the line they have unusually high wire to clear something. |
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| (1180872) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Oct 12 17:46:13 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Oct 5 16:10:41 2012. I remember seeing the 5500 series but never rode on them. Only the 6000 series and later. Bow Collectors were used up to the eighties when most cars became air conditioned. Apparently, the inverters didn't like the short sudden loss of power caused by them and they were replaced with pantographs. |
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| (1180891) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Fri Oct 12 19:18:45 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Wed Oct 3 20:09:59 2012. I wonder, does that outfit that does the rehabilitation on the PCC's have any Double Ended PCC's in his yard waiting the call to service.? |
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| (1180894) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Oct 12 19:23:38 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Atomsk on Wed Oct 3 20:09:59 2012. So trolley catenary which operated with trolley poles* was a different design than Catenary with Pantograph vehicles?*Beebe lines in upstate NY among others. |
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| (1180921) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by Joe on Sat Oct 13 05:59:34 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by RockParkMan on Fri Oct 12 19:23:38 2012. To: RockParkManYes, there are some important differences, and there are differences by choice of the designer. 1) Overhead trolley wire needs frogs. The forward motion of the car will tug the pole onto the correct choice. Because a pantograph has a wide blade, one can begin the diverting route with a wire that does not physically meet the straight route. 2) Only opinion: In the U.S., light rail catenary is too heavy, too complex, making for intrusive visual clutter over the street. Some of the European systems with pantographs have simpler catenary that comes a bit closer to the early 1900's hanging of trolley wire. 3) I cannot describe the difference in tension between the ways of hanging wire over streets. In The Bronx, the wire seemed to be hung easily and loosely, but more carefully on curves. |
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| (1180926) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Sat Oct 13 09:16:23 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Joe on Sat Oct 13 05:59:34 2012. Yes, frogs would be an obvious difference Also trolley guards at crossings of steam roads. |
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| (1181028) | |
Re: PCC and other Trolley Question????? |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Sat Oct 13 21:12:25 2012, in response to Re: PCC and other Trolley Question?????, posted by Avid Reader on Fri Oct 12 19:18:45 2012. The ex-DC cars Brookville has were operated by Tandy Subway were run as double ended cars. |
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