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What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 11:02:54 2012

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For me, it's ENY-Broadway Junction. fabulous and extensive flying junction, merging and sorting the Broadway and Fulton Street elevated trunk lines, the Canarsie branch and East New York Yard, with yard leads to every line, and then with 14th Street layered over in 1928.



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(1171908)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by AlM on Sun Aug 12 17:47:10 2012, in response to What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 11:02:54 2012.

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How about Clapham Junction?

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(1171919)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by andy on Sun Aug 12 18:13:24 2012, in response to What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 11:02:54 2012.

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Chatham Square on the old IRT 2nd and 3rd Ave Els wasn't exactly shabby either. The 2nd and 3rd Ave. trunks merged and then diverged into two different south terminals - City Hall and South Ferry.

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(1171932)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 18:34:26 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by andy on Sun Aug 12 18:13:24 2012.

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It depends on your definition of "ultimate." In terms of physical complexity, ENY prior to the demolition of the Fulton St el and later modifications would probably have it. In terms of traffic volume, I would give it to the junction of Lake and Wells (Tower 18) in Chicago. In rush hours, it has trains going in every possible direction, straight iron and both directions around the loop. Green Line trains travel straight iron across Lake from east to west. Purple and Brown Line trains travel straight iron south along Wells run counter clockwise around the loop and return west across Lake turning north into Wells. Pink Line trains come east along Lake and turn south onto Wells running counter clockwise around the loop and return west across Lake. Orange Line trains come north along Wells and turn east along Lake continuing clockwise around the loop and back to Midway Airport. At one time it was even more complicated when the Purple Line came south along wells and turned east onto Lake running counterclockwise around the loop but that was changed in recent years to its current pattern.

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(1171943)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 12 18:49:40 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 18:34:26 2012.

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Indeed IINM it was once considered the buiest on the planet

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(1171944)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 18:56:28 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 12 18:49:40 2012.

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That is correct.

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(1171948)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:06:16 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 18:34:26 2012.

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(1171950)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:12:27 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 18:34:26 2012.

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I don't consider ENY a single junction, just two fairly close together. The Canarsie and Fulton St line conjunction at Atlantic is separate from the Broadway/Canarsie line one at ENY.

As a unified junction, Chatham Sq gets my vote. You basically had two lines meeting here, then dividing into two other lines, where any train could switch from one or the other with relative ease, even if 2nd Ave trains mostly ran to City Hall and 3rd Ave el trains to South Ferry.

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(1171952)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 12 19:14:54 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:06:16 2012.

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yup, have ridden every combination over 57 years

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(1171954)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:18:55 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 12 19:14:54 2012.

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If it was a full cloverleaf, the different variations would probably require me to do some math.

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(1171962)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:36:09 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 12 17:47:10 2012.

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Refer is to pix or a track diagramme?

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(1171963)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:41:07 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:12:27 2012.

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No one is mentioning Queensborough Plaza? Eight tracks merging six tracks west on three lines into six tracks east on two lines (eight tracks on three lines if Crosstown had been built).

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(1171965)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:48:51 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:12:27 2012.

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You can't separate out Broadway-Canarsie from Fulton-Canarsie. They all converge west of Atlantic Avenue. The only exceptions are the yard leads east to the Broadway Line and west to Fulton.

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(1171975)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by R36 #9346 on Sun Aug 12 20:42:30 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:18:55 2012.

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What demand is there for a one-seat ride from Clinton/Lake and points west on the Green and Pink lines to Merchandise Mart and points north on the Brown and Purple lines?

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(1171981)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 21:25:05 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:48:51 2012.

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The Fulton St line and the Broadway line don't converge at all. It's two junctions, each sharing one route (Canarsie line).

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Who wants cake?

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(1171983)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 12 21:26:42 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by R36 #9346 on Sun Aug 12 20:42:30 2012.

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Actually in the last two decades there has been major office development west of the River so workers living N of the river (and the Brown and Purple both serve residential areas that have yupscaled in the same period) could use such service. However, the short hop between the Loop and Clinton is not a huge problem in decent weather and there is no easy way to do a one seat route.

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(1171984)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 21:28:12 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by R36 #9346 on Sun Aug 12 20:42:30 2012.

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I have no idea because I know next to nothing about the Chicago el system.

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(1171985)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 21:29:10 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:41:07 2012.

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Good point. At it's height, quite complicated.

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(1171987)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 21:31:08 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 21:25:05 2012.

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You have cake?

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(1171988)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 21:35:26 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 21:31:08 2012.

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(1171990)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 12 21:39:28 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 21:35:26 2012.

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Double shot put! You go, Spice! :)

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(1171991)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 12 21:42:33 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:41:07 2012.

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I mentioned it in another thread. I said that I wondered what it would be like for a complex like that to have been built underground.

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(1171995)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 12 22:31:24 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:18:55 2012.

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Ahem:

Cloverleaf:



Grand Union:



You probably meant the latter.

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(1171996)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 22:37:02 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 12 22:31:24 2012.

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How stupid of me.

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(1171998)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 12 22:58:48 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 12 22:31:24 2012.

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Never saw a cloverleaf with reverse curves.

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(1172019)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by chud1 on Mon Aug 13 04:12:44 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:06:16 2012.

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thats one busy place.
chud1

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(1172020)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Aug 13 04:52:48 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:41:07 2012.

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Wish there were more pictures of it around.

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(1172021)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Aug 13 05:33:37 2012, in response to What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 11:02:54 2012.

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Has to be this one. I've seen photos of this junction many times and I still can't figure out exactly what went where. Amazing piece of architecture and even more amazing piece of engineering that kept trains from crashing into each other.

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(1172022)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Aug 13 05:35:01 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:06:16 2012.

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I love this pic. It reminds me of some of the junctions my son and I would create using his Thomas the Tank Engine wooden railroad set when he was little.

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(1172072)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Brighton Private on Mon Aug 13 12:47:48 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by AlM on Sun Aug 12 17:47:10 2012.

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I wouldn't call Clapham elevated.

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(1172104)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 13 14:38:19 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 19:06:16 2012.

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Neat!!

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(1172107)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 13 14:41:28 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 12 21:26:42 2012.

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Bot only that but if a true "grand union" were to be constructed there, Tower 18 would have to be moved again.

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(1172111)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 13 14:49:54 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 12 21:25:05 2012.

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When the original Fulton St el was still running, both the Bway el and the Fulton el merged into the Canarsie Line and that junction was controlled by Tower 1. The junction S/O Atlantic controlled by Tower 3 was actually a lot simpler being merely a separation of the Canarsie and the Fulton Lines. Also part of the same complex controlled by Tower 1 were the yard leads coming off the Fulton St el and Bway el in both directions and the Canarsie line from the south.

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(1172119)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Aug 13 15:10:59 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 13 14:41:28 2012.

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given the current service pattern SB from Brown/Purple to WB Pink and return, the question is how badly one wants a seat NB going home. Inbound AM to "river west from Brown, first Loop stop, change for Pink which immediately turns W. From Purple, a little more backtracking or use Green WB from Clark/Lake. Outbound PM come into Loop on either Green or Pink change to Purple at Clark/Lake for a seat, circle Loop filling train. Use Purple for any stop below Belmont, change there to Brown. See map at
http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/maps/ctatrainmap.png
to check.

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(1172157)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by BMT Standard on Mon Aug 13 16:16:09 2012, in response to What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 11:02:54 2012.

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How about Sands St., where all of the Brooklyn El lines converged? Throw in the trolley tracks, and it could give Broadway Junction a run for it's money.

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(1172365)

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Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?

Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 14 14:47:28 2012, in response to Re: What was the Ultimate Elevated Junction?, posted by BMT Standard on Mon Aug 13 16:16:09 2012.

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Since the trolleys didn't actually merge with the el trains they really don't count.

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