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| 9th Avenue LL Question (1170611) | |
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| (1170611) | |
9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 4 16:58:24 2012 I noticed Brennan's Abandoned Station report on Ninth Avenue Lower Level station says that it consists of "2 platforms, 3 trackways (one with track)."I thought all three tracks were still there. Aerial views by bing and google seem to affirm that all three tracks exist and are connected. Center only (formerly east track) toward the SBK r-o-w. Who knows what's really there now? Active, occasional use? Inactive? TIA. |
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| (1170614) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 17:22:10 2012, in response to 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 4 16:58:24 2012. "I thought all three tracks were still there."I think there still are 3 tracks on the 9th Ave LL, well there was still there as of 2010: |
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| (1170615) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 17:22:13 2012, in response to 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 4 16:58:24 2012. "I thought all three tracks were still there."I think there still are 3 tracks on the 9th Ave LL, well there was still there as of 2010: |
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| (1170616) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 17:26:46 2012, in response to 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 4 16:58:24 2012. "I thought all three tracks were still there."I think there still are 3 tracks on the 9th Ave LL, well there was still there as of 2010:      |
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| (1170617) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Aug 4 17:33:54 2012, in response to 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 4 16:58:24 2012. Just following the tracks:...         |
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| (1170621) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Aug 4 18:26:58 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 17:26:46 2012. Third time was the charm. |
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| (1170626) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 18:44:44 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Aug 4 18:26:58 2012. There 3 times? |
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| (1170639) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Aug 4 21:01:29 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 18:44:44 2012. Yup. The first two had no pictures, just little blank squares. The third post had all the pictures properly posted. |
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| (1170643) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Aug 4 21:25:06 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Aug 4 21:01:29 2012. actually the first two were viewable by right clicking view image. cumbersome but doable. |
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| (1170647) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 4 21:48:27 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Aug 4 17:33:54 2012. Whatever happened to the ramp the Culver line used to use? |
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| (1170653) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 22:19:46 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Aug 4 21:01:29 2012. I knew something was wrong about why the pics didn't show... |
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| (1170657) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Aug 4 22:36:46 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 22:19:46 2012. It's a bit tricky when linking to pics from nycsubway.org. Just linking to the image that displays once you click on the thumbnail won't work. You have to right-click, then choose "view image" (or something like that, then link to that URL. |
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| (1170696) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sun Aug 5 05:44:09 2012, in response to 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 4 16:58:24 2012. All three lower level tracks should be there and are usable. They're used to turn work trains. |
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| (1170734) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 5 11:32:16 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Aug 5 05:44:09 2012. All three tracks are there. |
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| (1170735) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Sun Aug 5 11:37:17 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Aug 5 05:44:09 2012. All three tracks are there. |
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| (1170763) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 5 13:25:46 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 4 21:48:27 2012. The ramp to the elevated structure? Demolished. |
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| (1170829) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 5 18:03:00 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 5 13:25:46 2012. When was it demolished? |
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| (1170868) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 5 22:30:29 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 5 18:03:00 2012. The structure lasted quite awhile after abandonment in 1975.I would say about 1985, but I'm sure someone here knows more precisely. The elimination of the surface tracks was a real blow to bocce. |
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| (1170870) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Aug 5 22:47:05 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 4 21:48:27 2012. The earthen ramp is still in place adjacent to the tail tracks used for reverse moves on the old SBK RoW into the 38th street yard. |
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| (1170871) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Aug 5 22:47:50 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Aug 5 05:44:09 2012. All three tracks were still in place as of this past June 2012. |
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| (1170873) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 5 22:54:24 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 5 22:30:29 2012. Thanks. The reason I'm curious about the ramp is because I thought I remember seeing it into the '90s. |
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| (1170879) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 5 23:31:11 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 5 22:54:24 2012. Ah, strike that, the ramp is still there. Check out "1042 37th St, Brooklyn, NY" to see the end of the ramp. I was confused by the location of Broadway Lion's pics. |
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| (1170958) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 6 14:24:49 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 5 22:30:29 2012. Judging by the automobiles int he pcitures of the demolition, it was '84 or '85. |
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| (1170970) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 6 15:51:35 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 5 23:31:11 2012. My first picture was taken from 4th Avenue looking west.I then walked around to 3rd Avenue and took a picture looking east. That is my second picture, you can see the headlamps of a north bound train leaving 9th Avenue and about to turn north on 4th Avenue. The third picture shows the gate that proclaims itself to be an "Active Railroad Track", and I followed across the street down to 2nd Avenue and thence on to Foist Avenue. I did not follow it onto the pier as that appeared to be private property, but I assumed that it joined up with SBK down there. A Google Earth image of that pier is inconclusive to me but it did not seem to me to be clearly connected. ROAR |
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| (1171370) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 8 19:03:13 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 5 23:31:11 2012. I guess I should have asked what you meant by "the ramp." I thought you meant the ramp that brought the Culver from the surface onto the elevated structure. Apparently you mean the ramp from the tunnel to the surface.The Lion's pix are of the opposite end of the Culver/SBK split, at 4th Avenue. |
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| (1171399) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 9 01:35:36 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 6 15:51:35 2012. Yeah for whatever reason I thought the pics were of the opposite direction, east of 9th Ave. I was getting confused by the highway ramp and the missing Culver ramp, until I essentially dropped my preconceptions and worked it out from the beginning. |
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| (1171401) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Aug 9 01:43:26 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 8 19:03:13 2012. No, they're more or less one and the same ramp. In actuality, the tunnel entrance is about surface level or slightly lower. At most, there is a slight pause when the ROW is level with the surface, and that's where the tunnel tracks link with the SBK. The tunnel tracks, however, no longer go up the ramp (as per Google), but the ramp is still there and they park cars and stuff on it. It might be a little hard to see because there was a truck at the address I gave, but if you go west a little, you can see it more clearly. |
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| (1171432) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 9 12:22:21 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Aug 5 05:44:09 2012. I am surprised they are not used for midday R layups, instead of having the trains stored in Coney Island, only to have to run empty to 36th St before going into service. |
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| (1171434) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Aug 9 12:43:35 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 8 19:03:13 2012. He is talking about the ramps to the 5th ave el, not to the culver el. |
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| (1171445) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Aug 9 14:25:18 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 9 12:22:21 2012. Good Plan... But...The tracks need to be available for yard and maintenance use. ROAR |
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| (1171463) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 15:34:52 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by R30A on Thu Aug 9 12:43:35 2012. According to BMT old timers I worked with, the ramps that are currently used as leads into 36 St Yd are the same ones that were used by the 5 Av El. The unused ramps were probably built for that purpose but never had tracks installed so were never in use. |
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| (1171464) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 15:35:29 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by R30A on Thu Aug 9 12:43:35 2012. According to BMT old timers I worked with, the ramps that are currently used as leads into 36 St Yd are the same ones that were used by the 5 Av El. The unused ramps were probably built for that purpose but never had tracks installed so were never in use. |
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| (1171504) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 9 18:57:35 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 15:35:29 2012. Those ramps were for the 5th Avenue el connection and did have track on them. I say so because I've seen at least two pictures with track.However ... in later years all traffic went up the two extant ramps. How later? I can't say but almost certainly by 1931, when Culver-Nassau diminished traffic on the 5th. |
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| (1171613) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:20:34 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 9 18:57:35 2012. Can you tell me where to find the pictures? |
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| (1171614) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:20:46 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 9 18:57:35 2012. Can you tell me where to find the pictures? |
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| (1171621) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 14:38:00 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 9 18:57:35 2012. 1915 picture. I see NO tracks on these ramps: I believed those were the el ramps as well. This is news to me. |
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| (1171627) | |
Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 14:48:17 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 14:38:00 2012. This 1924 overhead view of the 38th St yard shows the two ramps in question without tracks. In fact, you can follow the tracks from the 5th Ave el as the diverge south of 36th St and see they can ONLY feed into the existing yard ramps.Randy is right. They never had track. In fact, there's nothing at the top of these two ramps for tracks to connect to. |
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| (1171639) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 15:39:16 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 14:38:00 2012. What I find interesting is that all the 3rd rail in the area is subway type yet when the Culver el first opened it used el cars exclusively until the Nassau St line opened and even after that 5 Av el trains continued to share the Culver with subway trains until the el was demolished in 1940. According to the BMT old timers I worked with Culver El shuttles continued to operate between Stl and 9 Av for a short period after the 5 Av el came down. |
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| (1171642) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 15:44:09 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 15:39:16 2012. Probably a contingency for any possible service on the 4th Ave subway. The Nassau Loop was opened many years after it was supposed to have been finished. |
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| (1171648) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 10 16:05:39 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 14:38:00 2012. It looks like the 5th Avenue Line was accessed through the yard. It may have been planned to use the further ramps in a future that never happened.ROAR |
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| (1171649) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 16:11:07 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Aug 10 16:05:39 2012. If you follow the tracks, the el trains went around the yard to get from 36th/5th to 9th Ave. |
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| (1171650) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 10 16:17:00 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 4 21:48:27 2012. Speaking of the Culver line, I never knew there were track on that short stub north of Ditmas as late as 1995:
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| (1171675) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 17:24:25 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 15:44:09 2012. However, BMT subway equipment could use either type of 3rd rail whereas the el cars could only use el type 3rd rail unless they were specially equipped with subway shoes which some eventually were. Since the Culver was using el cars at the time, it would have been more logical to install el type 3rd rail at the time. |
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| (1171678) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 17:31:48 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 10 16:17:00 2012. That wasn't the only oddity regarding abandoned el lines on the NYCTS. Although the Fulton St el west of Rockaway Av was abandoned in 1940, the short 1/2 block long section of the el structure that was left up at Franklin Av to facilitate the transfer from the Fkln Shtl to the IND had the rail and ties completely intact although very rusty until at least 1959. That year I rode Franklin for the first time and saw the remains of the rails still there. When I returned some time later, the rails and ties had been removed and only the structure remained, but the rails and ties remained there for 20 years. |
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| (1171707) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 10 21:15:29 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 17:24:25 2012. I was under the impression the el cars were the ones which could use both types. |
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| (1171722) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 11 02:45:14 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 17:31:48 2012. Didn't that piece also include part of the Fulton El station? The last time I saw it before it was demolished, it occurred to me that the stairway across from the shuttle/Brighton station looked old enough to have been part of the original structure. Also, if IIRC, when the structure was exposed, you could see the structure for platforms as well.There were several other bits of old els where ties and/or tracks were still there long after the els were demolished. |
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| (1171727) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 03:54:49 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 17:26:46 2012. And that is a station I would renovate mainly so in the event of a G.O. or other emergency (like the blizzards of recent years) on the West End line it can be used as a terminal for the (D) or other lines. I would also include a provision that would allow for a future connection to a rebuilt Culver El, that would not be quite on the original ROW, but would include a new upper level of Ditmas Avenue on the (F) with those tracks then merging with the existing tracks after that. |
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| (1171728) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 04:35:46 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Aug 9 14:25:18 2012. My plan would be to renovate the lower level to where it can be used either for G.O.'s or in an emergency (especially if there is a blizzard) as a terminal by the (D) and other lines with a future connection to a rebuilt El to the Culver line as noted in another post. |
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| (1171764) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 11 12:02:02 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 03:54:49 2012. Except trains can already terminate on the center track of the upper level, which was done before on the M, I believe. |
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| (1171849) | |
Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 00:29:34 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:20:46 2012. 
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