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| NYC Subway Division (1171010) | |
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| (1171010) | |
NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by BusRider on Mon Aug 6 21:17:47 2012 In the B Division, what routes are considered IND and BMT, or is there sub separate divisions within the B Division? |
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| (1171015) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Aug 6 21:27:48 2012, in response to NYC Subway Division, posted by BusRider on Mon Aug 6 21:17:47 2012. I haven't heard of divisions B1 and B2 lately although I heard of them at one point. The main break between the B division is the section(s) of 8-car only platforms: the entire J, L, and Z lines, and the M line from Essex St to Metropolitan. These sections, all with cars in 4-car sets and based out of ENY, are often referred to as the Eastern Division, at least on this board. The M line is 8-cars even when it is in 10-car territory (most of Manhattan and the Queens Blvd line).Traditionally, the A, C, E, and G lines are IND, and to this day use all of what would be traditional IND territory. The B and D also have their routes in the IND, but south of Grand St and the Manhattan Bridge, use BMT territory in Brooklyn. The F train is historically IND, but uses ex-BMT trackage when elevated on the Culver Line south of Church Ave. The N and Q trains are historically BMT and use all historically BMT trackage today. The R train is BMT as well but uses IND territory for its whole length in Queens. Franklin Ave shuttle is BMT, Times Sq shuttle is IRT, and the Rockaway Park shuttle is IND. One can say that a line is "traditionally" or "historically" IND or BMT based on its designation history and purpose. "A" is for Washington Heights - 8 Av, "B" is for Washington Heights - 6 Av, "C" is for Concourse - 8 Av, "D" is for Concourse - 6 Av, "E" is for Queens - 8 Av, "F" is for Queens - 6 Av, "G" is for Crosstown, "J" is for Jamaica Ave line, "L" is for Canarsie line, "M" is for Myrtle Ave line (Metropolitan Ave), "N" is for Sea Beach, "Q" is for Brighton, "R" is for 4th Ave local (95 St). |
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| (1171016) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Aug 6 21:31:13 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Aug 6 21:27:48 2012. M would be historically BMT, using IND territory in Manhattan once geographically north / west of Essex St. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1171035) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by BusRider on Mon Aug 6 22:40:51 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Aug 6 21:31:13 2012. According to the MTA reports in Board Materials is says that:IND - A,C,D,E,F,G,S BMT - B,J/Z,L.M.N.Q,R,S But then I remember seeing on here there was a IND Queens Division E,F,G,R,V(at the time) and BMT East J/Z,L, and M. So I wanted to clarify. |
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| (1171082) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Aug 7 08:41:06 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by BusRider on Mon Aug 6 22:40:51 2012. Could you point me to where you found that, that the B is considered BMT? Really, I don't know why MTA continues to use the terms "IND" or "BMT" when the lines are all blurred now anyway. Probably a railfan typing up the materials. |
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| (1171090) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Tue Aug 7 10:35:23 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Aug 6 21:27:48 2012. You could say that the (A) operates on BMT territory along Liberty Avenue in Queens. |
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| (1171167) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Aug 7 08:41:06 2012. The MTA does not use the terms IND or BMT (or IRT for that matter).On the radio, the B1 frequency is used for most former BMT trackage; the B2 frequency for most former IND trackage. As a result, most people associate B1 with BMT and B2 with IND. For employee picking purposes, there are three districts in the B Division: North: A, C, D, H, L Queens: E, J, M, R South: B, F, G, N, Q, FS |
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| (1171168) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 7 17:08:32 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012. IND North: A, B, C, and DIND Queens: E and F BMT East: J/Z, L, and M BMT South: N, Q, R, FAS I'm not sure where the G goes.... |
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| (1171225) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Aug 7 22:21:39 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012. Queens is so small now. :-( |
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| (1171226) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Aug 7 22:22:16 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 7 17:08:32 2012. Totally wrong. |
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| (1171231) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by monorail on Tue Aug 7 22:27:11 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 7 17:08:32 2012. 'I''m not sure where the G goes....' Court Sq to Church AVe |
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| (1171232) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 7 22:28:01 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012. Wait ... wut? H is north? Does it ever leave Queens? |
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| (1171254) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 8 03:17:36 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by monorail on Tue Aug 7 22:27:11 2012. Ha, very funny.... |
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| (1171255) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 8 03:18:41 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Aug 7 22:22:16 2012. Um, how am I wrong??? |
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| (1171257) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 8 04:56:09 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by renee gil on Tue Aug 7 17:08:32 2012. IND North: wrongIND Queens: wrong BMT East: wrong BMT South: wrong The way you wrote it, is not the way the responsibility districts and the picking districts are comprised. Alex L has it correct. |
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| (1171260) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 8 05:44:11 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Aug 8 04:56:09 2012. Well, I thought it was like that... |
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| (1171272) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 8 08:55:33 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012. F is south. I'm surprised it's not in Queens with E. |
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| (1171300) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Wed Aug 8 11:00:03 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 8 08:55:33 2012. Because it goes to Coney Island and many jobs start there |
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| (1171302) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Aug 8 11:39:08 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 7 22:28:01 2012. Leave Queens? It never goes to Queens (if by queens you mean Jamaica) Well yes I know Kennedy Airport is in Jamaica, but really Jamaica means Queens Boulevard, and the H never goes there. It is simply an adjunct of the A train. Think of it as an (A) train with an opening at the top.LION is surprised that the (G) is now Coney Island, it makes sense now since it is all put physically cut off from Jamaica, but then it never really gets to Coney Island either. I guess the G is nothing more than an F with a different shape to it. LION would STILL run the (RR) Astoria to Ft. Hamilton as the Broadway Local 24/7 via 60th Street and the Tunnel, and to saturate the line with as much service as it can handle. Him would then send the (Q) to 125th Street and the (N) to 71st Street via 63rd Street and the Bridge. ROAR |
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| (1171303) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Wed Aug 8 12:31:51 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012. So when an employee picks, they can pick the D and L together as part of their week but not the B and D? Hmmm... |
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| (1171310) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Aug 8 13:15:28 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012. The MTA does not use the terms IND or BMT (or IRT for that matter).Alex, what about the red "emergency exit" signs that hang from the ceiling at the front and back of every platform citing how far the next emergency exit is, direction of train travel and what division of the system you're in? Those signs use IRT, IND and BMT. (And I think the one on 49th St (7 Ave) BMT Broadway line station incorrectly lists the division as IND). --Mark |
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| (1171312) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Aug 8 13:40:14 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Aug 8 13:15:28 2012. Sooner or later those "signs" will get done over Mark..The paper work has been filed! ;o) |
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| (1171314) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 8 13:48:35 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Aug 8 11:39:08 2012. You would still have the problem of a lack of an operationally convenient maintenance facility for the equipment. The R to Ctl is operationally the best way to go. |
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| (1171315) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 8 13:54:30 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by mtk52983 on Wed Aug 8 11:00:03 2012. The D also goes to CI and it's in the north. Based on your logic, the D should also be in the south, which I think it should be anyhow. I'm not sure if anyone has it exactly right and I haven't had the chance to check it out yet. Even many NYCT employees don't seem to have it right. There is a T/O I ran into recently who insisted the Z ceased to exist several years ago when in fact it is still alive and well. |
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| (1171316) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Aug 8 13:56:51 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 8 13:54:30 2012. Even many NYCT employees don't seem to have it right.They GET it right when it comes time to pick so as far as some are concerned that's all that matters.. |
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| (1171336) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Wed Aug 8 15:03:47 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 8 13:54:30 2012. If it were me it would be as follows:East - J, L, Z, M jobs that start at Metropolitan North - A, C, H, D jobs that start at 205th Queens - E, R, F jobs that start at 179th, M jobs that at 71st South - B, G, Q, N, FS, D/F jobs that start at CI (or in case of F any put-ins from near CI) |
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| (1171358) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Aug 8 17:59:04 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 8 13:48:35 2012. Then who serves Astoria? Astoria can ONLY be served by the 60th Street Tunnel, and with the LION'S control of the Broadway LION all of the Manhattan interlockings are fleeted: 60th Street = Local Via Tunnel and 63rd Street = Express Via Bridge.LION will be happy to extend the Fourth Avenue Line making space for an 18 train terminal (6 tracks x 2000 feet) under Fourth Avenue south of 95th Street. ROAR |
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| (1171359) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Wed Aug 8 18:05:38 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Alex L. on Tue Aug 7 17:03:53 2012. Is it just me, or did the old districts make more sense?With the previous system, all trains sharing a yard ended up in the same district (CIY = South, ENY = North, Jamaica = Queens, etc.). Now, both ENY and Jamaica are split with (J/Z)(M) to Queens and (L) to North, as well as (E)(R) to Queens and (F) to South. |
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| (1171365) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by FarRock on Wed Aug 8 18:41:11 2012, in response to NYC Subway Division, posted by BusRider on Mon Aug 6 21:17:47 2012. Here's a tricky fact the (7) is actually part of the (B) Division but its not....it is still considered an (A) Division line due to Equipment and other reasons maybe someone here can explain......... |
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| (1171372) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Aug 8 19:18:05 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by FarRock on Wed Aug 8 18:41:11 2012. Things that make it "A" division:-Numbered line -Equipment / Platform Configuration -Signal Chaining Codes / Trip arms Things that make it "B" division: -Only physical link to any other line (non 7-line territory) is to B-division (toward Astoria or 60th St tube) -Length of most full length trains used is closer to B-division normal length than other A-division lines' normal length. |
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| (1171396) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by monorail on Thu Aug 9 00:55:19 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by renee gil on Wed Aug 8 03:17:36 2012. thanks! |
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Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Thu Aug 9 03:30:13 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Aug 8 11:39:08 2012. The (H) is ALWAYS in Queens. |
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| (1171407) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 04:23:13 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Aug 8 17:59:04 2012. Astoria will continue to be served by theN which has perfectly adequate car mtce facilities at CIYd. Due to the Q having to be ultimately rerouted to the SAS either an increase in R service possibly between Astoria and either Whl or Canal St or a W service will have to be instituted. However, outside of rush hours. There is really no need for an additional service to Astoria outside of the rush hour, so a few rush hour short line N intervals from/to Astoria to either Whl or Canal should suffice. |
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| (1171408) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 04:26:04 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Southern BMT on Wed Aug 8 18:05:38 2012. The M is actually not split between ENY and jamaica since the maintenance and inspection for the M is done at ENY. For that reason, the M should be assigned to whatever district is BMT Eastern and removed from the Queens district altogether!!!!! |
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| (1171412) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 9 06:18:01 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by monorail on Thu Aug 9 00:55:19 2012. Haha! No Prob! |
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Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Thu Aug 9 11:45:16 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 04:26:04 2012. I know. What I'm saying is that the Jamaica Yard trains (E,F,R) are split between two districts (E&R in Queens, F in South) and the ENY Yard trains (J,L,M,Z) are also split between two districts (J,M,Z in Queens, L in North).My point is that the (J)(Z)(L)(M) should all be grouped together. |
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| (1171427) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Aug 9 11:48:17 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 04:23:13 2012. So basically what is the official disricts and assignments?IND - A,C,D,H IND Queens - E,F,G,M,R BMT North - J/Z,L BMT South - B,N,Q,R,FS |
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| (1171436) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Thu Aug 9 13:06:27 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by BusRider on Thu Aug 9 11:48:17 2012. What Alex saidhttp://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=1171167 |
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| (1171442) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 9 14:15:49 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Aug 8 19:18:05 2012. I'm pretty sure that, if not for the narrow Steinway tubes, the line would have been converted to B division standards long ago. |
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| (1171470) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 15:43:32 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by BusRider on Thu Aug 9 11:48:17 2012. About a year ago on this forum, it was mentioned that the district names were being changed from North, South and Queens to BMT, IND and IND/BMT but I forget which lines were to be assigned to which divisions. |
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| (1171474) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 15:50:47 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Southern BMT on Thu Aug 9 11:45:16 2012. Regardless of where the cars are laid up during non rush periods and overnight, the car assignments are not split. Jamaica Yd is responsible for all cars assigned to the E,F and R, CI Yd is responsible for all cars assigned to the, B, G, N, Q and Fkln Shtl, ENY is responsible for car assigned the the J/Z, L and M , Concourse Yd is responsible for cars assigned to the D and Pitkin Yd is responsible for cars assigned to the A and C (although I heard that might either have changed recently or may be changed). Unfortunately, the pick section's districts don't always match the car assignments and in the case of the M that line for pick purposed is now with the Queens section instead of with the J, and L where it belongs. |
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| (1171476) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by renee gil on Thu Aug 9 15:53:47 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 8 13:48:35 2012. Of course, that's the reason why the N and R swapped northern terminals in 1987. Why would anyone would want to send the R back to Ditmars Blvd??? |
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| (1171480) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 16:07:39 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 9 14:15:49 2012. I don't what has happened as far as RCC supervision of the Flushing Line since the creation of the new RCC, but when I was in the old command center, the Flushing line operated on the B Division radio frequency and trouble calls were handled by the BMT desk trainmaster (now superintendent). The zone trainmaster that handled the Flushing Line also handled the Astoria Line and part of the BMT Bway Subway and was a BMT trainmaster. For a brief period, Flushing Line supervision was considered and picked as part of the B division with the exception of the Corona yardmaster. For even a shorter period, the Corona yardmaster was B Division until at one point the yardmaster figuring he was in a "BMT" yard allowed a BMT sized flatcar to be transferred to Corona Yd instead of having it stopped at Qnsbro Plaza. The flat was able to be sent back to the BMT very carefully via the lcl track causing little of any damage to the platform edge, but after that the Corona yardmaster jobs were placed back under the IRT Division in order to eliminate the confusion. What gets even more confusing in that area is that the Qnsbro Plz Master Tower while on basically IRT property does not control any IRT switches other than possibly the diamond Xover N/O QBPl but controls only the BMT Astoria Line and the Qns Blvd IND. The tower, however can see a large portion of the Flushing Line and is responsible for making connections between IRT and BMT trains at QBPl. |
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| (1171502) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Thu Aug 9 18:56:16 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 15:50:47 2012. Regardless of where the cars are laid up during non rush periods and overnight, the car assignments are not split.I don't think you understand what I am saying here. I am not claiming that the car assignments are split among yards. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to take lines assigned to the same yard and split them into different districts. Unfortunately, the pick section's districts don't always match the car assignments and in the case of the M that line for pick purposed is now with the Queens section instead of with the J, and L where it belongs. Exactly. That was my point. |
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| (1171578) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Aug 10 05:15:00 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 9 16:07:39 2012. The (7) is still covered by the BMT Desk at the RCC, and operates on the B1 radio frequency.The diamond crossover, and all associated signals (including the approach automatics on Track G2) are controlled from 111th Street Tower. Queensboro Master Tower can see the Flushing Line from Hunters Point Avenue to 74 Street - Broadway, but they don't mess with the (7) at all. On *rare* occasions they'll put holding lights on a (7) train for a connection, but this is very rare. 111th Street Tower can manage those same holding lights. Unfortunately, 111th Street Tower can only see the Astoria Line within the limits of Queensboro Plaza, and to just north of the station. Kinda makes coordinating the inter-divisional moves a bit tricky. |
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| (1171586) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by jamaicalocal on Fri Aug 10 10:00:00 2012, in response to NYC Subway Division, posted by BusRider on Mon Aug 6 21:17:47 2012. As a little background, prior to unification in 1940, only the city owned and operated INDependent Subway used letters on its' routes (A thru GG). The 1956 acquisition of the Rockaway branch was added to the IND and route HH was created for the roundabout run from Euclid Avenue thru the Rockaways and return. With the advent of the Chrystie St project in 1967, it became possible to run former IND and BMT trains on each others trackage. As a result, the former BMT was assigned letters J thru Z. The IRT, being of different dimensions remained a separate division, but was renemed Division A. The merged IND/BMT became Division B. |
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| (1171593) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 10 12:01:20 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by jamaicalocal on Fri Aug 10 10:00:00 2012. Actually the HH was created for the shuttle between Court and Hoyt-Schermerhorn....and the IND routes are from A to HH, not to GG. |
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| (1171620) | |
Re: NYC Subway Division |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:37:01 2012, in response to Re: NYC Subway Division, posted by renee gil on Fri Aug 10 12:01:20 2012. The original HH was supposed to be a Fulton St lcl operating between Court St and Bway/ENY, however it only operates as a single tk shuttle between Court and Hoyt 7AM - 7PM Mon - Sat. At least one of the museum R-9s has a map showing the Court to ENY service but the shuttle ceased operation before the Fulton St Line was extended to ENY. That map also shows the IND open to Euclid which dates it to 1948 2 years after the shuttle ceased operation. When the Rockaway shuttles started operating in 1956, they carried the letter of whatever through service operated to the Rockaways during rush hours. Sometimes it was A and sometimes it was E. When the late trainmaster George Abere was a M/M on the Rockaway Division circa 1960, he argued that the shuttles were neither A nor E trains and suggested that the unused HH designation be used for the Rockaway shuttles since both the R-9s and R-10s used on those lines had HH signs. The head of the TA's Transportation Dept agreed and from about 1960 on, HH became the official designation for the Rockaway Shuttles. The original side signs on the R-9s read HH/Fulton St Local which although not entirely correct was accurate enough since the shuttles did operate on what was officially the IND Fulton St Line even though that portion of the line operated along Liberty and Pitkin Aves. As new signs were being ordered, they read HH/Rockaway Shuttle and the latest signs read H/Rockaway Shuttle although those signs are not used on nay of the Rock Pk shuttles in actual practice. |
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