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C to Lefferts |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 03:44:41 2012 We're always discussing what we as outsiders might consider a better way of doing things....during much of the day you run alternate trains to Lefferts and Far Rock on the A line, right? The CF terminates at Eurlid. The headway on the C is something like 12 minutes, the headways on the A are something like 10 minues which means service to Lefferts only goes every 20 minutes (as well as service to Far Rock)....Wouldn't it be better for the stations along the Lefferts branch after the cut off to Far Rock to get C service? I read all the time they don't want it that way; that they prefer the current arrangement. Am I missing something here? Also since the Far Rock trains really serve the airport as well as the casino, shouldn't they have more service? Wouldn't this be better for all concerned and I don't think it would be all that costly. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 03:51:31 2012, in response to C to Lefferts, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 03:44:41 2012. I assume the headways you are referring to are midday headways and if that is the case, the A and C run on the same headways, If the A is 10 min then the C is also!. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 06:52:34 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 03:51:31 2012. But south of Rockaway Blvd., headways on the A are 20 minutes on each branch at all times except rush hours. If you live on the ocean, as I did for many years, that means you get far less service, particularly in midday, than most other lines in the system. Then, there's the unique route and service arrangement of the A line--on weekdays, it can have up to three different south terminals. I often wonder why operation of the Rockaway Division didn't include the designation of a different letter for service to Far Rock or Lefferts, to distinguish the two full-time terms... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Aug 3 07:56:38 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 06:52:34 2012. I would say to send the C to Lefferts, only if it is essentially a duplicate of the A north of Rockaway Boulevard.The current C service pattern would be renamed K. Rockaway Park trains would carry the H designation, which is already being used internally. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Aug 3 09:09:03 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 06:52:34 2012. I often wonder why operation of the Rockaway Division didn't include the designation of a different letter for service to Far Rock or Lefferts, to distinguish the two full-time terms...Because people should be able to read signage (both roll signs and digital Luminators) and listen to announcements. Then again you might be asking a legit question because to ask people to read nowadays and listen nowadays is impossible (especially since both require the human brain and human senses to do, and not an app on an iPod, iPhone or other smartphone!!) |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 09:24:30 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 06:52:34 2012. are you absolutely sure about those headways being 20 minutes. I seem to recall from my days on the A line that during mid-day we ran 6 & 8 minute headways. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 09:35:46 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 09:24:30 2012. Steve from the Good Old Timetables..Leaving FAR.. 1005 1213 1020 1233 1034 1054 1115 1135 1155 Now its not always 20 Minutes but as you can see there are some.. God I love TENS.. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Fri Aug 3 09:37:30 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 09:24:30 2012. It should be a combined 8 min headway duringthe mid days on the A...... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 09:50:40 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 09:35:46 2012. Those numbers include a twenty-one minute headway between 1054 and 1115, at that! |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 09:52:23 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Fri Aug 3 09:37:30 2012. right with 16 out of Lefferts and 16 out of Far Rockaway. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 10:06:07 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 09:52:23 2012. ...but you see, that was the point I was trying to make. What is the headway on the C. Is it the same as the A so it would be every 8 minutes out of Lefferts and every 8 minutes out of Far Rock....bearing in mind that the Far Rock branch is in effect the airport line (although Lefferts and then a bus...is that a viable alternative to save the $5 for the air train?)....At least that is the way it seems to me but I admit I'm no expert. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 10:44:43 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 10:06:07 2012. Once again you run up against the venerable NIMBY. The people using the train from Lefferts Blvd also like their "one-seat" express ride into the city. If the C were extended to Lefferts, they would lose that. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 11:01:33 2012, in response to C to Lefferts, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 03:44:41 2012. No, it would not be better. the Richmond Hill/Ozone park area residents have made it QUITE clear they DO NOT WANT the fulton local, period. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Mr Railfan on Fri Aug 3 11:17:36 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 11:01:33 2012. Would it be that hard to change trains at Rockaway blvd or Euclid? It's not like they are forced to stay on the Local for the entire duration of the trip. plus Rockaway blvd's only 3 stops from Lefferts. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 11:21:46 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Mr Railfan on Fri Aug 3 11:17:36 2012. Then its no longer a one seat ride. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 12:20:20 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Mr Railfan on Fri Aug 3 11:17:36 2012. Rockaway blvd can't handel the crowding of the trains empyting out to transfer. why force them to wait twice to go somewhere when they only need to wait once now. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 12:53:22 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 12:20:20 2012. ..but then again, they could simply stay on the C train and unless they're going above 168th Street, they'll end up the same place with just a few extra minutes or maybe the idea is that except for rush hours to run the A train local in Brooklyn! Would resolve a whole lot of problems, now wouldn't it |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 12:55:21 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 12:53:22 2012. Have you factored in Crew Costs?More crews Needed? Extra Switchmen? Platform C/Rs? Changing of the Work Program? The Timetable? |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 13:12:08 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 12:53:22 2012. dude, are you intentionaly trying to get yourself beat up? do you want whole neighborhoods crying for your head?your "ideas" are not resovling problems, they are making life WORSE for thousands of people. Slower, more complicated service for no reason other than you thinking it's a good idea. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:30:46 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 06:52:34 2012. Isn't it 15 minutes (8 TPH, 4 from each branch)? |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:34:16 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 10:06:07 2012. The C runs at 10 minute headways. Extending it to Lefferts would actually increase service. The problem with doing this is the three stations on Liberty Ave served by all trains would have extremely excessive levels. And the Rockaway Park branch has a far lower demand than the Far Rock branch, so splitting service between the two would punish Lefferts Blvd line riders for the benefit of almost no one. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 13:35:35 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:30:46 2012. Nope. Most times it's 20 minutes, 3 TPH from each branch. See Railman's TENS timetable elsewhere in this thread for an example. everything on the Rockaway Division is 20 minutes, including the (H) shuttles. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:36:40 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Aug 3 09:09:03 2012. Splitting the A probably prevents confusion in Brooklyn and Manhattan, when there's no need to differentiate any of the different services. It's probably easier to condition Queens A riders to recognize what train goes where than to force the entire ridership to have to. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:40:46 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 13:35:35 2012. Those are old. According to the current timetable the A train runs at 7-9 minute headways during the day, including Saturdays. This jives with my memories of having trains leaving Lefferts or Far Rock every 15 minutes (4 TPH). |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 13:42:42 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 13:12:08 2012. Is it necessary to be so nasty? I said I wasn't an expert. It just seemed to me that ifit were me, I would prefer the expanded service of a tran every 8 or 10 minutes even though there are a few more stops than a train every 20 minutes. You disagree or it's impractical, fine. But the nastiness was not necessary, that's for sure.And my name is not dude. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 13:47:00 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:40:46 2012. No it's not OLD it's from my employee data base for this current pick.. You do forget I have acess to such info I guess. Chaulk it up to you learning something new everyday.. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:49:44 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 13:47:00 2012. How can the public timetables and the employee timetables be different? If yours are right, then there's one fewer train per hour from each branch actually on the tracks.Train Dude? |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 13:58:37 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:49:44 2012. You aren't reading it right you got Rockaway Blvd and Far Rockaway confused (im laughing at the 15 minute thing)as for Steve he's out chilling (beach he said it in another thread)but he can back up what I said when he gets around to it I'm sure..BTW I don't think he has access to TENS anymore... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 14:09:12 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 13:58:37 2012. No I'm not. I was using train departures from 207th specifically. They leave on an 8-9 minute headway from 10 AM until the beginning of the PM rush and all day Saturday. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 14:13:23 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 14:09:12 2012. We are talking leaving from the Rockaways not 207th Street.. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Aug 3 14:29:30 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 14:13:23 2012. The public timetable says during weekday middays northbound A's leave "every 15 minutes from either Far Rockaway or Lefferts Blvd and every 7 to 10 minutes from Rockaway Blvd" . In the southbound direction it says only "every 8 to 10 minutes to Rockaway Blvd with less frequent service to either Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway". |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 14:35:48 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by VictorM on Fri Aug 3 14:29:30 2012. I suggest you read that timetable I posted... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Aug 3 15:25:34 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 12:20:20 2012. Rockaway blvd can't handel the crowding of the trains empyting out to transfer. why force them to wait twice to go somewhere when they only need to wait once now.It handles them in the other direction just fine (people waiting for the "other" A). Plus if they don't like the crowd there's no reason they can't transfer at 88th, 80th, Grant, Euclid... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Fri Aug 3 15:31:42 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 10:44:43 2012. Couldn't they just settle for rush hour express service? They can still have their precious one-seat ride to Manhattan but only at the times when it's highly needed. Outside of rush hours, c'mon.... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 15:32:53 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 10:44:43 2012. For years they never had one, when the A was local and the E was the express. But that was long ago and only affected rush hours. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Fri Aug 3 15:37:38 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Aug 3 15:25:34 2012. Don't forget that people get so confused at Rockaway Boulevard because they don't listen to announcements. Sometimes a train may have incorrect signs up (especially on R32s when they may decide to make a train that came in as Far Rockaway leave as Lefferts instead), so people will just go by what they see rather than listening in case the signs are incorrect. But if they go by the letter of the train, they'll know by default that a train is ending at its intended terminal. The (A) is the only line that has more than one terminal at one end of its line at all hours of the day. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 15:59:11 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Aug 3 09:50:40 2012. That may be due to a running time change at that time of day and I would suspect that somewhere along the route the headway resolves to an even 20. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 16:06:46 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by LRG5784 on Fri Aug 3 15:37:38 2012. Actually, that's not quite correct since on the midnights, the A only runs to Far Rock and Lefferts is served by a shuttle from Euclid. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 16:10:38 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Aug 3 13:42:42 2012. That wasn't nastiness, that was sheer fact; you will have some pretty pissed off people after you if you start screwing around in the OZP.Just because what pops into your head seems like it fits, there is more than one piece to the puzzle and you need to work with all the pieces. I still remember one time I made a comment about the most expensive fare you could pay on the Tube, and you wouldn't shut up about Oyster Card discounts, even though it had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. I was talking about fare zones and fare box recovery and you just "But but but"ing me the entire time. Sure, one hand you have "more" trains idealy, but are your proving a service that's infact wanted. In this case I can tell you right here, right now, no, it's not wanted. and this isn't just me remembering that for no apprent reason, I rememeber almost everything I do and say. and "dude" is what I call people, so get used to it. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 16:11:36 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Aug 3 15:25:34 2012. here we're talking about the entire train emptying out coming from lefferts. they want that A and the want it badly. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Fri Aug 3 17:16:46 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 16:06:46 2012. I meant all day as in normal hours (6 a.m. - midnight daily). |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 17:22:01 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 14:35:48 2012. We're going by the public timetables. For large chunks of the day, we only have headways, not specific departure times. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 17:27:42 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 17:22:01 2012. We're going by the public timetablesNo i think You are going by them, if you read JayZees comment in this thread hes taking 20 minute headways from the Rockaways.. Then Steve asked him Are you absolutely sure? I shown him the Numbers... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 17:40:55 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by LRG5784 on Fri Aug 3 17:16:46 2012. But you didn't merely say "all day." You said "all hours of the day" which implies 24 hours. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Fri Aug 3 17:43:18 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Railman718 on Fri Aug 3 13:58:37 2012. But I can back it up. He's right. I can definitely vouch for him.... |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Aug 3 17:49:00 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 13:49:44 2012. Railman is correct. My access to the employee Website has been temporarily suspended. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Aug 3 17:52:25 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 3 16:11:36 2012. "they want that A and the want it badly"In another thread, some suggested that the A isn't much faster than the C on account of timers. I believe it too-- I often stay on the local just to get a seat or a more comfortable place to stand. Does it really matter then? |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 18:37:25 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Aug 3 17:52:25 2012. It may not matter to those of us who are knowledgeable about actual operations but not necessarily to the average passengers. Back in 1959 when the West Side IRT lines were reconfigured ant eh #1 became exclusively a local, the TA operated a "Local-Express" service between Dyckman and 137 St. The so called expresses skipped 191, 181, 157 and 145 Sts but were on the local track so that passengers would be just as well off taking whatever train came first. One day a passenger at 168 St let a local go by and when another passenger asked why, the passenger replied that she was waiting for the express so that she could get downtown faster. Years ago an old girl friend of mine used to take the Brighton Line from K/Hwy to Church Av and always took the Express. She would complain to me that 4 locals went by before an express came. I told her that with the difference in running time being so small, she should take the first train that cams since it would get her to her destination quicker than waiting up to 6 min for an express. Psychologically the average passenger would rather wait 10 min for an express train to save a perceived 5 min rather than taking a local train that might get him/her to the desired location faster. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 19:04:00 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Aug 3 17:52:25 2012. The time saved by the express is probably more valuable to Rockaway riders. Remember, when their train pulls into Euclid, their ride is already 25-30 minutes long. Running time from Lefferts to Euclid is 11 minutes. |
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Re: C to Lefferts |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 3 19:15:29 2012, in response to Re: C to Lefferts, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 3 19:04:00 2012. The running time is only 11 min during rush hours. The rest of the time its inly 10 min. |
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