|
|
| Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map (1162464) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 2 of 5 |
||
|
| (1162615) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:16:16 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 14:26:03 2012. Another plausible thought. Especially if the line was surveyed to that location and the Aqueduct owners knew about or assisted the surveyors. |
|
|
| (1162617) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 15:18:05 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:16:16 2012. Who owned Aqueduct, back then? |
|
|
| (1162618) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:22:59 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 15:18:05 2012. I have no idea. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1162622) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 19 15:47:54 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:22:59 2012. From Wikipedia..."Operating near the site of a former conduit of the Brooklyn Water Works that brought water from Long Island to the Ridgewood Reservoir, Aqueduct Racetrack opened on September 27, 1894 by the Queens County Jockey Club. The facility was expanded and a new clubhouse was constructed before the 1941 summer meet. In 1955, the Greater New York Association took over Aqueduct [...]" That implies that it was owned by the Queens County Jockey Club in the 1930s and '40s. |
|
|
| (1162623) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:51:33 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 19 15:47:54 2012. True, but what bearing would that have on searching for a subway entrance? My thoughts would be to search, if that would ever be possible, in the Public Works Department, if their records go back that far and if someone would be permitted to search in them. |
|
|
| (1162625) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 15:59:59 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:51:33 2012. My thought was that the planned subway was going to terminate at 106th St, back then. Perhaps the owners of Aqueduct may have started construction of a 106th Street terminal on/near their property. |
|
|
| (1162626) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 16:06:48 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 15:59:59 2012. That's very possible. But the people who were running Aqueduct at that time are almost sure to not be with us any more. And even if a few were, would their memories be accurate? Hard copy records, if any exist, would help. But do they exist, and where are they? |
|
|
| (1162628) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Dan on Tue Jun 19 16:10:19 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 21:24:56 2012. An "old horse trainer". Very funny. |
|
|
| (1162632) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 19 16:52:31 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Jun 18 23:35:45 2012. Most of the sources I have seen seem to indicate that although the subway extension was planned as early as the 1939 date of the map, actual construction did not start until the actual unification in 1940. What is known is that the subway infrastructure and Pitkin Yard were completed prior to US involvement in WWII minus the track, signals and station finishes (except for Bway/ENY). The likely reason for the omission of Bway/ENY from the map is that the city probably had not yet decided on the exact location of the station and/or what it would actually be called as seems to also be the case with 76 (75) St. What is known is that the connection to the eastern portion of the Fulton St el was considered by the time the subway infrastructure was completed to Euclid (or 76 St) since the provision for the connection was built into the actual subway structure itself and the Euclid model board shows both 76 St station and Grant Av station coexisting. The original plans called for the connection to the LIRR ROW to be made via a portal from the subway in the vicinity of Aqueduct and the contract book for the connection to the Fulton el indicates that existing BMT signaling was to be used east of the 80 (Hudson ) St interlocking. A B of T report on proposed new subway lines issued in 1951 indicates that the connection to the LIRR ROW was to be made from the Fulton St El near Rockaway Blvd, a location we now know as Liberty Jct. That would seem to indicate that at some time between 1948 and 1951, something happened which caused the city to stop building the subway down Pitkin Av and rethink its plans for the LIRR connection. What is not known is why the plans were changed. It could have been due to problems encountered in the area which would have made further subway construction either prohibitively expensive or completely impossible or it could have been just a finding that the ramp from the Fulton St El which was eventually built was just significantly less costly to build than the originally planned 4 track subway down Pitkin. |
|
|
| (1162683) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by mike cruz on Tue Jun 19 21:46:31 2012, in response to IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by X-Astorian on Mon Jun 18 18:25:40 2012. Does anyone know when that substation along the Rockaway line at Pitkin was built? seems weird that it just happens to be there, perfect place for an access hatch inside. |
|
|
| (1162690) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 19 23:00:41 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Joe V on Mon Jun 18 18:35:26 2012. The Fulton Line jogged north at Euclid Ave, two blocks west of Crescent. |
|
|
| (1162691) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 19 23:08:28 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 19 06:06:33 2012. It could also be argued that the Fulton line jogged SOUTH at Snediker to avoid redundancy with the Broadway El, and that the Euclid jog was a return north to where it "should" have been. In that maybe they wanted to build on Liberty all along but it was deemed too close to Fulton to profitable. But the northward jog of the Broadway El left them an opening at Euclid. |
|
|
| (1162697) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 19 23:52:38 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Jun 18 23:34:31 2012. Back when these els first went up, Brooklyn and Queens were separate entities. They probably did not have permission to build beyond the county line. All the el extensions into Queens were constructed after unification. By turning parallel to the county border, it allowed the el operators to serve more customers within the area they could legally operate. |
|
|
| (1162698) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jun 19 23:56:10 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 19 16:52:31 2012. That would make sense. That would indicate why there wasn't a station planned at Bway/ENY (the BMT Fulton St line the IND was replacing did not have a station here). In fact, a Broadway-ENY station makes little sense here until after unification, where the desire to have a major transfer point between systems would come into play. It's simply too close to Rockaway Ave. |
|
|
| (1162722) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jun 20 07:10:11 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 19 16:52:31 2012. Very informative. Thanks :) |
|
|
| (1162724) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 20 07:32:35 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 19 23:08:28 2012. That makes sense, too. |
|
|
| (1162727) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jun 20 08:01:17 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 21:07:34 2012. Yes, but it was fully built, tiles and all prior, minus trackage and signals, before we entered WWII. If this map is from 1939, construction on that station would have been well along already. |
|
|
| (1162745) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 20 10:53:24 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Dan on Tue Jun 19 16:10:19 2012. He trained young horses too. |
|
|
| (1162762) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 11:48:15 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 14:26:03 2012. I think that idea is just about impossible.can anyone tell me of 1 nyc subway station that was privately funded. |
|
|
| (1162786) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 13:46:32 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jun 20 08:01:17 2012. Not really. They could have easily built that section entirely within 1941. In fact, I bet most of the construction in 1939 was taking place under 6th Ave, not out here. |
|
|
| (1162792) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jun 20 14:02:58 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 13:46:32 2012. ????????It's known fact that before WWII, the Pitkin line was built all the way to at least Euclid (and possibly further, but that's up for debate). The shells at Euclid, Liberty, Van Siclen, and Shepard were all built. At Bway-East new York (Bway Junction), the station was completely built and tiled. The only thing missing east of Rockaway Ave was the metal infastructure such as tracks and signals, so that's why Rockaway was the terminal. There is no debate as to whether that segment was built before we entered WWII, it's known fact. |
|
|
| (1162795) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 14:10:22 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jun 20 14:02:58 2012. Construction halted on all subway projects in January 1942. I doubt much had been done on the Pitkin Ave segment prior to the opening of the the 6th Ave IND in December 1940. The map itself suggests that the overall plan of the line was NOT formalized, an absolute must before construction begins.One wonders how the subway would look had the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th, 1942. |
|
|
| (1162800) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 20 14:35:27 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 14:10:22 2012. Had they not bombed Pearl Harbor, I think that it still would have been connected to the Liberty Ave el, with a 2 track subway, instead of 4, under Pitkin Ave, to 106th St. |
|
|
| (1162804) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 14:48:03 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 20 14:35:27 2012. I believe the Pitkin Ave subway would have connected to the Rockaway line, not the Liberty Ave el, which would probably be served by the C train today. |
|
|
| (1162806) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:06:22 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 19 06:06:33 2012. I have checked certain street maps from the 1930s and 40s some of which are hard to find and is seems that Pitkin Av did not extend past Ruby St which is the approximate location of the legendary 76 St station. Although I am connecting some dots that really don't exist, I surmise that Pitkin Av was through routed with South Road sometime around the early 1940s when the IND was being built through the area. This is much the same thing that was done in Manhattan when 6 Av was through routed between W3 St and Canal St as part of the iND subway construction in that area. It is likely that the Fulton El jogged at that point due to the fact that it couldn't continue too far past that point along Pitkin anyhow coupled with the probable lack of residential development in the area at the time the original el was built. |
|
|
| (1162808) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:12:13 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 14:48:03 2012. As I said in many posts on this topic, once unification had been achieved, a 4 track subway down Pitkin was to have coexisted with the connection to the Fulton St el as built. The provision to connect the IND to the Fulton El was part of the Pitkin subway construction from the start and the model board at Euclid clearly shows both 76 St and Grant Av and there is a photo of Euclid Tower in the 1948 B of T annual report that clearly shows both stations. |
|
|
| (1162810) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:14:41 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 11:48:15 2012. Aqueduct Racetrack station while not "privately" funded as such was paid for by the NYRA not the City of NY or the NYCTA. |
|
|
| (1162811) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:20:02 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:12:13 2012. I agree, I am just saying how things would have been different had the tunnel east of Euclid under Pitkin been built before the war stopped all construction. It would have been easier to connect it to the Rockaway line, not the former BMT line. A service to the Rockaways, C service to Lefferts. |
|
|
| (1162813) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:26:22 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:20:02 2012. More precisely, Fulton express service to Rockaway, Fulton local to Lefferts, except when the express ran local (today, at night, 90's on weekends, previously all times except rush hours) where a shuttle would service the station. |
|
|
| (1162815) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by GIS Man on Wed Jun 20 15:31:23 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 15:59:59 2012. Maps from that time and much later show Linden Blvd. extending through the track, with 105th thru 108th Sts. connecting to it. The map at the head of this thread seems to imply that the subway was to run from Pitkin Av. into Linden Blvd. (partially completed today) and under it to 106th St. BTW, the Geographia Map Co. maps today are the only maps which STILL show this, along with a more elaborate interchange between Linden Blvd. and N/S Conduit Avs.Bob |
|
|
| (1162816) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:34:29 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:20:02 2012. Once unification was achieved, the plan was to have the 4 track subway continue down Pitkin Av to connect with the LIRR ROW in the vicinity of old Aqueduct with a branch to the Fulton St el which was eventually built and is the one in use today. Liberty Jct was not part of the original plans and the contract book indicated that the existing BMT signaling was to be used S/O Hudson St (80 St) interlocking. |
|
|
| (1162817) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:44:43 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 13:46:32 2012. in 1941 construction had reached liberty ave.& atlantic ave.the ERA published photos of this several years ago.all subway construction stopped on the IND on may of 1942. |
|
|
| (1162818) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:44:44 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:34:29 2012. That would have died after the war. I am limiting my view to what would have happened had they only been able to build what the map in the original post showed (a tunnel to 106th) due to the war starting later than it did. No doubt wherever construction ended when the war began would have been the end of construction period. |
|
|
| (1162820) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:46:42 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:44:43 2012. I've read elsewhere that construction ended in January '42, specifically here underneath Pitkin. |
|
|
| (1162822) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:48:21 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:46:42 2012. "building the IND" has all work stopped in may of 1942. |
|
|
| (1162823) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:51:08 2012, in response to IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by X-Astorian on Mon Jun 18 18:25:40 2012. All this talk of subway extensions under Pitkin Ave has led me to check out the maps of the area on Google and looking at them gives me the unmistakable impression that the center median of Conduit Blvd would be an ideal place to construct a subway extension (a la the CTA Red line on Dan Ryan Blvd). I'd argue the best alternative is to extend the IRT from New Lots, under Linden and then down the highway, maybe all the way to Laurelton. |
|
|
| (1162824) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:53:17 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:14:41 2012. as soon as I posted I realized that.to nitpick,its an embankment station,not a subway station. |
|
|
| (1162825) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:55:24 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:51:08 2012. have you forgotten that there is an abandonded water tunnel under conduit blvd? |
|
|
| (1162826) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by mike cruz on Wed Jun 20 16:08:55 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:55:24 2012. INCORPORATE IT! lol is it completely abandoned? |
|
|
| (1162828) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 16:16:27 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by mike cruz on Wed Jun 20 16:08:55 2012. yeah,the city sold it to nassau county many years ago.I don`t know if the city portion which is the highland pk.resevoir to the hook creek blvd & sunrise h`way pumping station was sold. |
|
|
| (1162835) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 20 16:39:36 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 19 23:08:28 2012. The Kings County elevated was built after the Brooklyn Elevated RR began, so its franchise could not run over Fulton Street, east of Snediker. In addition to their City Line route, they had their eyes on the Canarsie RR. Are you guys aware that the Kings County tried to acquire the Canarsie Railroad, but were outbid by the BUERR? |
|
|
| (1162836) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 16:40:26 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:55:24 2012. Yes, but the subway would run on the surface, like the CTA Red Line. |
|
|
| (1162851) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by mike cruz on Wed Jun 20 18:14:58 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 16:16:27 2012. I always though it was still used. |
|
|
| (1162853) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 20 18:27:51 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 20 16:39:36 2012. Are you guys aware that the Kings County tried to acquire the Canarsie Railroad, but were outbid by the BUERR?When did that happen? The timing doesn't seem quite right for that. |
|
|
| (1162880) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 20 20:37:01 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 15:51:08 2012. Robert Moses had other plans for that median. |
|
|
| (1162882) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 20 20:45:01 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 15:53:17 2012. What do you count as a "subway" station? How about Botanic Garden, 1928. |
|
|
| (1162887) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by ClearAspect on Wed Jun 20 21:42:44 2012, in response to IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by X-Astorian on Mon Jun 18 18:25:40 2012. Judging its route the line would've followed Pitkin Avenue to around Cross Bay Boulevard where it would've gone under Linden Blvd and possibly for the extension follow Linden Blvd since it goes all the way to the border with LI. |
|
|
| (1162889) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 22:21:44 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 16:40:26 2012. For what,less than a mile? are we forgetting that little `ol thing called the belt p`way? |
|
|
| (1162891) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 22:24:03 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by ClearAspect on Wed Jun 20 21:42:44 2012. it goes apx,1 1/2 miles into nassau. |
|
|
| (1162892) | |
Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 20 22:26:32 2012, in response to Re: IND Pitkin Avenue Extension - map, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 20 22:21:44 2012. It can duck under the Belt AND the Van Wyck. Check Google. Conduit/Belt has a wide space alongside or down the center for most of it's run to the Queens border. |
|
|
|
Page 2 of 5 |
||
