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City Hall Tour

Posted by blue8irt on Sun Jun 17 23:21:50 2012

My wife and I had the honor and pleasure of touring the IRT City Hall loop station. It is just a shame that the lighting and cleanliness of the place isn't better. It's also sad to see the skylights so dark and filthy looking. The commemorative signs should be well lit while visitors are there. I know, it's all due to costs. Thank goodness the history is still very much alive and being passed along to others. That station complex is a tribute to engineering and craftsmanship that has stood the test of time. It's right there for everyone to see and to get to know. It's also a shame that the City of New York did not always keep it's word when it came to executing the plans expected by the public after being promised. There is not one existing line in the system that is a waste. What I mean is that I have no doubt that every one of the proposed lines would have been put to good use without the city having wasted a penny of investment. The most glaring example being the destruction of the Third Avenue Elevated and the eternal delay of the construction of the Second Avenue Subway. Will this one line be enough to really help those riders in need of service? Time will tell.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Jun 18 14:14:47 2012, in response to City Hall Tour, posted by blue8irt on Sun Jun 17 23:21:50 2012.

It's also sad to see the skylights so dark and filthy looking.

Weren't they painted over during WWII?

--Mark

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Jun 18 16:16:50 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Jun 18 14:14:47 2012.

Yes. Only one of them was restored.

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Re: City Hall Tour


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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 18 17:14:42 2012, in response to City Hall Tour, posted by blue8irt on Sun Jun 17 23:21:50 2012.

The 3rd Ave el could have been kept running for another few years, but that would not have hastened the building of the 2nd Ave subway. Like most people here, I wanted a 4 track "regular north-south" subway under 2nd Ave. But, in reality, we will just have to settle for this 2 tracked thing. Let's just hope that it reaches lower Manhattan before we are either dead, wasting away in nursing homes, or in our childrens basement.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 18 17:21:29 2012, in response to City Hall Tour, posted by blue8irt on Sun Jun 17 23:21:50 2012.

Once Robert Moses got into power, the city could never again build mass transit on a large scale. He hogged most of the construction money for his highways, bridges and parks. The IND was completed under his watch only because the contracts had been let before he got into power and it had to be completed. Moses hated rapid transit and believed that it was obsolete, expensive and ugly.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jun 18 22:54:50 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 18 17:21:29 2012.

ugly and good enough for the poor to use only..he wanted it "limited to the underclass.."

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by RailBus63 on Tue Jun 19 09:18:18 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 18 17:21:29 2012.

Moses did not control city government.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jun 19 14:18:05 2012, in response to City Hall Tour, posted by blue8irt on Sun Jun 17 23:21:50 2012.

I agree. I wouldn't be willing to sacrificae a single facility- Service from broad Street to Brooklyn should be restored, and the Culver Shuttle should have been fully integrated with the IND- not left as a stub that was doomed from Day 1.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Allan on Tue Jun 19 14:18:43 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by RailBus63 on Tue Jun 19 09:18:18 2012.

That is a matter of opinion.

He had amassed so much political influence in both City and State government, that if he didn't get his way he'd threaten to quit.

He usually got his way until finally Mayor Robert Wagner refused to give in to him.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 14:49:34 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Allan on Tue Jun 19 14:18:43 2012.

Unfortunately, too late for Wagner to prevent the Dodgers from leaving Brooklyn! But, Wagner or no Wagner, Robert Moses ran the Tri-Boro Bridge & Tunnel Authority and the MTA wanted it for their toll revenues. William Ronan got the Tri-Boro by giving Moses a commissioner's job with the new MTA. Once the Triboro was fully absorbed into the MTA, Ronan froze Moses out of most meetings and, the following year, Moses left. "Thus always to tyrants!"

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:17:03 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 14:49:34 2012.

What year(s) was this?

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jun 19 16:09:14 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:17:03 2012.

Moses was completely forced from power by the formation of the MTA in 1968. According to "The Power Broker", Moses, who was already 80 years old by this time, initially refused to allow the TBTA to merge with the MTA and was prepared to sue the MTA on behalf of the TBTA bondholders (one of his favorite ploys to ensure that no one could interfere with his power). Nelson Rockefeller and William Ronan (first MTA chairman) shmoozed him over and led him to believe that Moses would have a big role in the MTA, so he threw his weight behind it. After the MTA was formed, Moses was given a desultory "consulting" position with the MTA, and he was ignored from then on.

Moses had already given up much of his power in the early '60s, when he resigned from the position of Parks Commissioner and then shed a few more city and state jobs when he became the director of the 1964-65 World's Fair.

If you never read The Power Broker, read it. Its an amazing book.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 19 17:08:57 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jun 19 14:18:05 2012.

One of the reasons that the Culver was eventually relegated to a shuttle was that the BMT 4 Av subway was severely overcrowded and capacity at the time could not be increased due to a severe BMT car shortage. That car shortage was supposed to have been alleviated but the purchase of the complete 50 unit purchase of the Bluebirds, but upon unification, the city cancelled the order, accepting only the 5 units that had already been completed and ready for delivery. Until the BMT Southern Div. platforms were lengthened to IND standards, a practical Culver service to Stl would have been impractical. Additionally, any connection at Ditmas would have had to be at grade and the NYCTA didn't want to deal with any more grade level junctions than it already had which were at 142 St/ Lenox and Bway/Myrtle.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 18:12:59 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jun 19 16:09:14 2012.

Thank you for this information. Reading "The Power Broker" is on my to do list. I'll take it with me on my next trip to Europe, where they'll be plenty of time in the flight to do so.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 20:23:04 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 15:17:03 2012.

I believe that Moses was lured into the MTA in early 1967. Once William Ronan had the triboro firmly in his domain, moses was gone the following year.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 20:27:14 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 19 17:08:57 2012.

Didn't it also have something to do with low ridership? The Culver subway only used 3 Standards in mid-day service on 4th Ave tofrom Nassau St, while the rush hour rains had only 6 cars. And that was before the IND hookup in 1954.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 19 22:49:41 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jun 19 16:09:14 2012.

I'm holding out for it to show up on iBooks.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:27:06 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 19 20:27:14 2012.

That was part of it. Another factor was that prior to IND operation the Culver never accessed midtown Manhattan but only went to the financial district. Initially, M - F alternate D trains terminated at Church Av and since the base midday IND headway was 8 min at the time, that meant the Culver had a 16 min midday headway. A similar situation existed S/O Euclid after the IND took over that line in 1956 with alternate A trains terminating at Euclid leaving Lefferts passengers with the same 16 min headway as the Culver. The only difference between the two was that on weekends all Culver trains went through to Stillwell, whereas alternate A trains continued to terminate at Euclid all 7 days except during midnight hours. After A service was extended to Far Rock at all times except midnights, the full A line service was available N/O Rockaway Av, but passengers S/O that point still had to put up with long headways on their respective branches.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 20 15:46:13 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jun 19 18:12:59 2012.

Its about 1100 pages but believe me, its riveting. Caro won the Pulitzer Prize for the book. The story about how Moses got deked by Rockefeller and Ronan is all the way at the end of the story, when he's an old man.

Once you get through the middle sections, when Moses was at the height of his power, you'll have a much better understanding of why the subway system and the suburban railroads look essentially the way they did, with some minor additions here and there, as they did before World War II.

Once you're done, you might want to read Robert Moses' 23 page response to the book, found here.

http://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/detritus/moses/

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 20 15:47:48 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 19 22:49:41 2012.

Does the iBooks version have the three sections of photos of Moses and his projects, and the people who he worked with? Some of those are fascinating.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by TERRapin station on Wed Jun 20 16:32:45 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 20 15:47:48 2012.

How would he know, Mitch?

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 20 16:52:44 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 20 15:27:06 2012.

I do remember the "D" trains signed for Church Ave. And nightly half- hour headways on the off-season "HH" trains to the Rockaways.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 20 16:59:33 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by TERRapin station on Wed Jun 20 16:32:45 2012.

Who are you, his lawyer? Why are you butting in?

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by monorail on Wed Jun 20 21:31:05 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 20 16:59:33 2012.

you really gotta ask?????

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jun 21 07:33:56 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jun 20 16:59:33 2012.

Answer the question. It's a very simple question, one that you must "know" the answer to since you brought up the subject.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Dj Hammers on Thu Jun 21 09:07:26 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jun 21 07:33:56 2012.

Why always so bitter?

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Jun 21 10:47:46 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by monorail on Wed Jun 20 21:31:05 2012.

really.....please don't feed the troll

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Jun 21 10:50:24 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Dj Hammers on Thu Jun 21 09:07:26 2012.

Never ceases to amaze me how the people of the Jewish faith, on this site, are always attacking one another. Just an observation.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 21 11:06:32 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Jun 21 10:50:24 2012.

What an incendiary "observation."

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jun 21 11:41:58 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 21 11:06:32 2012.

Iawtp

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jun 21 11:43:33 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Jun 21 10:50:24 2012.

Thanks for that, troll. Of course it doesn't seem to amaze you that people of other faiths attack each other on this site. Hmmmm....

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 21 13:55:55 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by TERRapin station on Thu Jun 21 07:33:56 2012.

I'm sorry, I need to see your retainer agreement first. Thank you and have a nice day.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Gamera on Thu Jun 21 13:57:13 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Dj Hammers on Thu Jun 21 09:07:26 2012.

he is what he is
will never change
hates everyone but himself

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 21 13:58:46 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by RailBus63 on Tue Jun 19 09:18:18 2012.

pwnt. And it was LaGuardia that moved things on the surface away from streetcars towards buses.

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 21 14:10:24 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Thu Jun 21 10:50:24 2012.

Yes - and when we don't attack each other, we're accused of being conspirators creating a "cabal".

People who hate Jews hate them for being Jews. There is no other reason.

Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:

Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."

Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."

Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."

Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."

Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)

Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."

As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:

Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were hated.

Chosen People -- a) In the late 19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the anti-Semites tolerate them.

Scapegoat -- Any group must already be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's ranting and ravings would not be taken seriously if he said, "It's the bicycle riders and the midgets who are destroying our society."

Deicide -- a) the Christian Bible says the Romans killed Jesus, though Jews are mentioned as accomplices (claims that Jews killed Jesus came several hundred years later). How come the accomplices are persecuted and there isn't an anti-Roman movement through history? b) Jesus himself said, "Forgive them [i.e., the Jews], for they know not what they do." The Second Vatican Council in 1963 officially exonerated the Jews as the killers of Jesus. Neither statement of Christian belief lessened anti-Semitism.

Outsiders -- With the Enlightenment in the late 18th century, many Jews rushed to assimilate. Anti-Semitism should have stopped. Instead, for example, with the Nazis came the cry, in essence: "We hate you, not because you're different, but because you're trying to become like us! We cannot allow you to infect the Aryan race with your inferior genes."

Racial Theory -- The overriding problem with this theory is that it is self-contradictory: Jews are not a race. Anyone can become a Jew - and members of every race, creed and color in the world have done so at one time or another.

Every other hated group is hated for a relatively defined reason. We Jews, however, are hated in paradoxes: Jews are hated for being a lazy and inferior race - but also for dominating the economy and taking over the world. We are hated for stubbornly maintaining our separateness - and, when we do assimilate - for posing a threat to racial purity through intermarriages. We are seen as pacifists and as warmongers; as capitalist exploiters and as revolutionary communists; possessed of a Chosen-People mentality, as well as of an inferiority complex. It seems that we just can't win.



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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 21 17:43:13 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by RailBus63 on Tue Jun 19 09:18:18 2012.

Ever read "The Power Broker"?

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Re: City Hall Tour

Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Jun 21 17:44:25 2012, in response to Re: City Hall Tour, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 21 13:58:46 2012.

Pwnt my ass. Its an ignorant statement made by someone who doesn't know history. Moses sure did control City government, especially after the La Guardia era ended.

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