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| Question About BMT 5th Avenue El (1161465) | |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by FWT9000 on Mon Jun 11 14:59:50 2012, in response to Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 14:52:34 2012. http://bmt-lines.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/bmtsoutherndiv.jpg |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 15:04:11 2012, in response to Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 14:52:34 2012. North from 5th Ave, it curved onto Flatbush near Pacific St. Near Fulton St it veered off of Flatbush over to Hudson Ave, crossing beneath the Fulton St el at this location. It ran north on Hudson Ave to Myrtle. The part of Hudson that intersects with Myrtle no longer exists.Here's a 1924 map of the area you can play with |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 15:20:12 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by FWT9000 on Mon Jun 11 14:59:50 2012. Thanks. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 16:16:29 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 15:04:11 2012. Are you sure about that? The way I read the map, after snaking underneath the Fulton elevated on Atlantic Avenue, the 5th Avenue el veered to the northeast and headed up to Myrtle along Ashland Place. But it seems that the Flatbush Avenue portion only ran from St. Mark's Avenue to just beyond Atlantic. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 16:20:53 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by FWT9000 on Mon Jun 11 14:59:50 2012. This map is slightly inaccurate about the routes the el structures followed, probably because it's more of a track map. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 16:26:06 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 16:16:29 2012. Check out the map. The 5th Ave el diverged from the Myrtle at Hudson Ave, ran south on Hudson to Fulton, crossed under the Fulton el, then veered over onto Flatbush. It followed Flatbush to Pacific St, where it then turned onto 5th Ave. It never ran anywhere on Ashland, it crossed Ashland as it continued along Flatbush Ave. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jun 11 18:14:33 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 16:20:53 2012. Looks like a third rail map ... |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 18:23:31 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 16:26:06 2012. I think I see what you're saying. The Fulton el never ran on Atlantic in this area. The old LIRR depot ran parallel to the 5th Avenue el in the area of Flatbush and Atlantic. The 5th then continued north and snaked under Fulton Street. I had mistaken the Fulton Street el for the LIRR tracks. My mistake.So the 5th Avenue el ran above Flatbush Avenue from Pacific Street to Fulton. Thanks. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 11 18:28:07 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 15:04:11 2012. I checked the Google map and it looks like Hudson Av no longer exists at all anywhere. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 18:36:08 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by randyo on Mon Jun 11 18:28:07 2012. It does. It runs for one block from Fulton north to De Kalb, where it dead ends at the LIU campus. Funny that the BMT made that odd little jog from Flatbush onto Hudson Avenue. Why not just run the 5th straight on Flatbush Avenue to Myrtle and make the connection there? Why bother with a narrow little street like Hudson? |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 11 18:44:19 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 18:36:08 2012. I see that. It's so short that the regular Google map doesn't even have it marked. I had to go to the Google street view to find it. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 11 19:23:04 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 18:36:08 2012. Why not just run the 5th straight on Flatbush Avenue to Myrtle and make the connection there? Why bother with a narrow little street like Hudson?Take a look at a map from the time that the El was built. Flatbush Avenue ended at Fulton Street. To this day, the section between the Manhattan Bridge and Fulton Street bears the name Flatbush Avenue Extension. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 19:52:40 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by randyo on Mon Jun 11 18:28:07 2012. Much like Grand Ave near Pratt and Myrtle near Metro Tech, it's been de-mapped and turned into a pedestrian-only walkway. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 19:55:55 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 18:36:08 2012. The part of Flatbush west of Fulton didn't exist until after 1900, when the extension to the Manhattan Bridge was built. It didn't exist when the el was first built. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 20:08:46 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 18:36:08 2012. To add, I believe the original alignment had the 5th Ave el crossing over the Myrtle Ave at grade (!!!) at this location and continuing north on Hudson to York St and the original Brooklyn Bridge terminal, prior to the building of the Sands St. loop. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 11 20:44:53 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 20:08:46 2012. You are correct! The first section of the 5th Ave el opened on Nov 5th, 1888. It headed north on 5th Ave, northwest on Flatbush Ave, and north again on Hudson Ave. At Hudson/Park Aves, it was joined by the Old Main Line (Lexington/Grand/Park Aves) to a terminal under the Brooklyn Bridge. Unfortunately, the Hudson Ave tracks crossed the Myrtle Ave tracks at grade and, on the following day, 11/06/66 a Myrtle Ave locomotive broadsided a 5th Ave one. Service on 5th Ave was annulled the next day and the line remained closed until June 21st, 1889. By then, a connection had been made to the Myrtle Ave el, so 5th Ave trains could share the Myrtle tracks to Brooklyn Bridge. At the same time, a shuttle was established from Navy/Myrtle to connect to Hudson Ave and the old ferry terminal. This shuttle, never electrified, continued running, even after the Park Ave el closed on Dec 30th, 1890. It finally closed on April 10th, 1904. Interestingly, Hudson Ave had been third railed, in anticipation of a BRT bridge over the east River. However, the bridge was never built and the BRT needed all of its electric current for its Brooklyn Bridge service trolley and el to to Sands Street or Park Row. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 11 21:02:55 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 11 20:44:53 2012. date should be 11/06/89, not 11/06/66! |
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BMT using IRT power (was Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El) |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Jun 11 21:12:09 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 15:04:11 2012. From the map, it looks like the Duel Contracts lines that went into Manhattan (Manhattan Bridge and Montegue Tunnel) got their power from the IRT.I guess that makes some sense considering that all of the Subway lines were built for and owned by the City. It probably saved a bit of money and complexity to have one power distribution system in Manhattan. |
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| (1161541) | |
Re: BMT using IRT power (was Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 21:15:49 2012, in response to BMT using IRT power (was Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El), posted by LA Scott on Mon Jun 11 21:12:09 2012. I know the Flatbush Ave line was built for use by both operators, but I am not sure they shared power sources. |
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| (1161542) | |
Re: BMT using IRT power (was Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El) |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Jun 11 21:17:12 2012, in response to Re: BMT using IRT power (was Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 21:15:49 2012. From the map, it looks like none of the BMT lines in Brooklyn shared power with the IRT. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 21:50:01 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 19:52:40 2012. But there is a Myrtle Avenue sign on Jay Street across from where Metrotech begins, in the place where Myrtle used to run. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Jun 11 21:58:13 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 19:52:40 2012. Part of Hudson is a pedestrian walkway, but part has been completely eliminated by the University Towers and other buildings/properties. |
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| (1161627) | |
Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:13:28 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jun 11 18:23:31 2012. The 5th Ave el's swing off Flatbush on Hudson was just south of Fulton. There's a building on the SE corner of Fulton and Flatbush that was built when the el was still up configured to clear the 5th Ave el. The 5th Ave el went under the Fulton el. Here's a link that shows the intersection looking SE during the construction of the IRT, the building behind the 5th Ave el is still there, looks alot different now 104 years later.http://www.nycvintageimages.com/category/tags/railroad |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:14:54 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 11 20:08:46 2012. Yes, they crossed at grade!! Caused some operational problems rather early on too. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:27:38 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 11 20:44:53 2012. I have seen a single photo of the York Street el with 3rd rail, so it might have been installed but maybe not used in regular passenger service, possibly due to power shortages mentioned. But back then the railways in the city were the big thing to throw lots of money at whether it really made sense or not.Speaking of throwing lots of money away on transit projects in the early years, there was a cable car line on Park Ave in Brooklyn for a couple years too. Ran from downtown east on Park Ave, not 100% clear if they made it to Brodaway or not. There's some interesting articles in the Brooklyn Eagle archives on that line. Lotsa other people's money went poof and alot of engineering troubles. Moved the power house twice. Cars were so heavy that when horses were substituted during cable problems they managed to kill alot of them. Used a unique cable system that wasn't very reliable. Fun stuff! |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:30:12 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by LA Scott on Mon Jun 11 21:58:13 2012. Architects and city planners get off doing stuff like that. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 20:06:32 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:27:38 2012. Not too many people are aware of why the BRT electrified, but never energized, the Hudson Ave tracks north of Myrtle Ave. This was because, in the late 1890's the BRT's president, Fredrick Uhlmann had proposed building their own rail bridge from Hudson Ave over the East River, to an area near Madison St in Manhattan. If built, it would have diverted some rail traffic off of the heavily used Brooklyn Bridge. In anticipation of this, the Hudson Ave tracks were third railed, but never energized, due to the electrical demands of the Brooklyn Bridge. Manhattan traction interests persuaded the City to reject this proposal, which it did. The next blow to the BRT was when the City demanded money for every el train going over the new Williamsburg Bridge, which opened in 1903. The BRT refused, so, the WillyB operated without el trains until 1908, after the issue was resolved. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 12 20:23:09 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:14:54 2012. Yeah, like "crash." When the 5th began running again a year later, all 5th Avenue trains were routed down Myrtle. It is uncertain whether the actual crossing was removed, but it is safe to say no 5th Avenue train ever again used the old Main. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 20:34:21 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 12 20:23:09 2012. Except the steam Forney and the one car shuttle that ran from Navy Street & Myrtle ave to the old Fulton Ferry terminal, under the Brooklyn Bridge, until April 10th, 1904. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 13 06:41:44 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 20:34:21 2012. Well, that wasn't a 5rh Avenue train. Ridgewood (Myrtle) trains continued to use Hudson Avenue for years, and finally, as you said, the shuttle. I'd like to see a picture of that. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Jun 13 11:27:48 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 20:06:32 2012. I think that it is reasonable to assume that if 3rd.rail was installed that it would be energized at least for a few days to test run the el cars on it.FYI:stan fishler has a photo of the el showing what appears to be 3rd.rail on the structure. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 13 13:12:09 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:13:28 2012.  Others, from Pirrman's site:  
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 13 13:15:16 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 12 20:23:09 2012. That meant that, at one time, Myrtle Ave trains had 2 at grade junctions to cross, at Grand Ave (Lex) and here (5th Ave). IIRC the problems involved two different operators not willing to give ground to the other when conflicts emerged (kinda like a frog war), a problem that better signaling and unified BRT operation would have solved. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 13 13:21:22 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by jan k. lorenzen on Tue Jun 12 18:14:54 2012. Here are a couple of pictures of the remnants of the junction from the 1950's:First Second |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by chud1 on Wed Jun 13 15:54:34 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 13 13:12:09 2012. beautiful, a foamers delight.chud1 |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by chud1 on Wed Jun 13 15:57:02 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 13 13:21:22 2012. 5 stars out of 5 stars on these great pictures.chud1 |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 13 19:16:27 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jun 13 13:15:16 2012. Hudson Avenue had an active passenger crossing for less than two days. The 5th did not run again until curves were built at Hudson and Myrtle so the lines didn't conflict.Similarly, curves were built at Grand and Myrtle, so most Ridgewood trains could take the Old Main Line and Lex trains could take Myrtle. The BERR and the UERR did not formally merge until almost the turn of the century, but they were effectively the same management and shared considerable trackage. In an actual case of separate managements; i.e., the BERR/UERR vs. the Kings County, they did not have a level crossing, the 5th had to go under the Fulton. |
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Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Jun 13 19:22:34 2012, in response to Re: Question About BMT 5th Avenue El, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 20:06:32 2012. From my research, those schemes were an attempt to salvage the investment in the Hudson Avenue property and possibly compete with (or at least gain concessions from) the NY & BB. They flared up and then flared out, and by 1904 the fate of the remainder of the old main were sealed, though the Hudson Avenue structure did not come down right away. |
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