When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays

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When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by Gold_12TH on Tue May 29 16:43:56 2012 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The Metropolitan Transportation Authority let it be known the other day that its plan to have the Long Island Rail Road run into Grand Central Terminal was way over budget and behind schedule. Cue the “Casablanca” tape, straight to where Captain Renault says — oh, you know what he says. Six years ago, officials figured that this project, called East Side Access, would cost $6.3 billion and be finished by the end of 2013. Now they’ve set a price tag of $8.2 billion and a completion date of August 2019. That’s a long way off, but if you’re already thinking about a 2019 Hamptons vacation, you may want to book alternative means of transportation, just in case. Let’s look back as well as ahead. In the dim recesses of history, meaning 1993, plans were unveiled for a new Pennsylvania Station in the colonnaded General Post Office on Eighth Avenue. That space, which has come to be known as Moynihan Station, in honor of the late New York senator, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, is intended to be an elegant replacement for the catacomb that is the existing Penn Station. The new station, it was said in 1993, could be built for $315 million and be finished by 1999. As every sentient New Yorker knows, the projected costs are now vastly higher. And the last time we looked at a calendar, we noticed that we are long past 1999, with no Moynihan Station in sight. Then again, perhaps one only needs patience. Lots of it. Look at the Second Avenue Subway, which once seemed as mythic as Atlantis or Camelot. It’s been talked about since at least the 1920s. Now, at long last, the first phase of that line is being built. The work hasn’t quite lived up to forecasts, though. When tunneling began in earnest in 2007, officials said the line would open in 2013, at a cost of $3.8 billion. The latest price is about $4.5 billion, and completion is not expected until the end of 2016 or possibly early 2017. On a brighter note, a new Willis Avenue Bridge spanning the Harlem River was completed. It opened in the fall of 2010, and cost more than $600 million. On a not-so-bright note, it was originally supposed be finished in 2006 and cost $350 million. Perhaps you remember that a new transportation hub at the World Trade Center site, under the aegis of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, took shape in 2005 with a $2.2 billion budget and a promised completion in 2009. At last glance, the budget has swelled beyond $3.4 billion and the opening is delayed till 2014. A few blocks from there, the Fulton Street Transit Center is aborning. When the design was announced in 2004, the prediction was for a 2007 completion at a cost of $750 million. Oops, where’s the eraser? Make that 2014 and $1.4 billion. North of the city, many New Yorkers depend every day on the worn-out Tappan Zee Bridge, in desperate need of structural C.P.R. (This is thoroughly off-topic, but mention of the bridge brings to mind an absent friend, Vic Ziegel, a great sportswriter for The New York Post and The Daily News. Years ago, he was on a train in France, sitting alongside German travelers, one of whom asked him, “Sprechen Sie Deutsch?” To which, Vic replied:“Nein. Tappan Zee Bridge?”) Gov. George E. Pataki raised the need for a replacement bridge in 1999. There was talk among officials in those days of possibly finishing the work in 2007. Now the plan is for a bare-bones new Tappan Zee costing $5.2 billion. Completion date: 2017. Are you beginning to see a pattern here? With more space, we could chronicle other examples of construction delays and swollen costs. They are practically hard-wired into our municipal and regional DNA, from designs for the World Trade Center site to the moribund trans-Hudson rail tunnel to the so-called Gateway Project that is supposed to create high-speed train service. None of this is new. For boondoggles, an enduring standard is the old Yankee Stadium. In the 1970s, it underwent renovations that were supposed to cost the city $24 million. The final bill exceeded $100 million. But though belated, a new age of realism is perhaps dawning. In discussing the East Side Access headache, the transportation authority’s chairman, Joseph J. Lhota, said, “The era of underestimating public-works projects is over.” Maybe. We’ll first have to see who else in government and politics are prepared to toss away the rose-colored glasses they love to wear whenever they announce big projects. ---http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/when-a-new-transit-project-is-announced-expect-delays/
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by kp5308* on Tue May 29 17:08:42 2012, in response to When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by Gold_12TH on Tue May 29 16:43:56 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Maybe. We’ll first have to see who else in government and politics are prepared to toss away the rose-colored glasses they love to wear whenever they announce big projects. They rose colored glasses don't get tossed until after the project starts. Anybody remember the Philly Center City Commuter Tunnel? IIRC it ran about 50% more than advertised. The next mess will be California's HSR project, if it starts.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by J trainloco* on Tue May 29 20:46:54 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by kp5308 on Tue May 29 17:08:42 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d This haappens in the private sector too. See Riverside South. Too big and complicated you say? Look at City Point. This happens all the time with construction, especially as the projets get larger and more complicated. it's not exclusive to Public Works.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by kp5308* on Tue May 29 22:04:14 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 29 20:46:54 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I've been in construction all my adult life. It does not happen "all the time". I have long time friends who have been involved with BIG projects. It does not happen "all the time". Was the BNSF Abo Canyon project like this?
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by kp5308* on Tue May 29 22:05:25 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 29 20:46:54 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Too big and complicated you say? I didn't say that.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Tue May 29 22:24:39 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by kp5308 on Tue May 29 22:04:14 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How many New Yorkers in Abo canyon? :)
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by J trainloco* on Tue May 29 22:53:21 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by kp5308 on Tue May 29 22:04:14 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And, believe it or not, but public works projects come in on time and under budget sometimes as well. The point of the post was that, despite your ranting, cost overruns are common to building projects in both public AND private sectors, and its due to many factors. You frequently paint a picture of public works projects that conveniently ignore this because it doesn't suit your agenda.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by merrick1* on Wed May 30 07:35:50 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 29 22:53:21 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Even the most trivial construction project can have delays. The contractor hired by the private landlord to replace the carpet where I work ran out of carpet part way through the job and stopped for a month. Apparently it is possible to miss the estimate of how much carpet you need by about 5000 square feet. The carpet they had to "special order" does not perfectly match the rest.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by JRice* on Wed May 30 10:41:26 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 29 22:53:21 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d NYCT's 63rd Street Connector was on time and under budget. Of course some will complain that it is not the super-express, but it serves a more realistic function and reduced congestion.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by Michael549* on Wed May 30 11:59:43 2012, in response to When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by Gold_12TH on Tue May 29 16:43:56 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d There were several tunnels for the Second Avenue Subway-Queens Super-Express project that were started and completed in the 1970's on-time and budget. I mention the rail tunnels under Second Avenue in East Harlem, Chinatown, and the whole Archer Avenue project, as well as the 63rd Street double-decked tunnel under the East River. The MTA reported that the Eastside Access Project major problem has to do with with the switch plant and trackage at the Harold Interlocking in Queens - NOT the tunnels under 63rd Street, or to/through Grand Central station. Weaving new track and switch connections through a huge working trackage junction is not an easy task - just think about the switch that was done to connect the 63rd Street to the Queens Blvd line - something that was never in the original plans. The devil is always in the details, when the rubber meets the road, in any kind of a large project. Being clear on the details, matter. Mike
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by Newkirk Images* on Wed May 30 17:23:23 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 29 22:24:39 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How many New Yorkers in Abo canyon? :) One Michael Bloombag vacations there. :-) Bill Newkirk
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Wed May 30 17:32:41 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed May 30 17:23:23 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Well THERE'S yer problem ...
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by kp5308* on Wed May 30 17:50:19 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 29 22:53:21 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Ahhh, so this is an agenda. Not based in reality due to my 25 years of experience I suppose. And I am ranting to boot! Must be hitting some nerves with you. Although I will give you the "under budget sometimes" comment. Care to share a few of the public projects with us?
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by kp5308* on Wed May 30 17:51:40 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 29 22:24:39 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'll hafta stop by with the Mrs. We'll take a count :o)
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by kp5308* on Wed May 30 17:54:19 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by kp5308 on Wed May 30 17:50:19 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Care to share a few of the public projects with us? My bad.....let us go back, say 30 years.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by kp5308* on Wed May 30 18:08:41 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by merrick1 on Wed May 30 07:35:50 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Apparently it is possible to miss the estimate of how much carpet you need by about 5000 square feet. And you should get fired if you estimate that far off. That is the exact point I'm trying to make here. This kind of stuff matters! The title of this thread appears to make delays & massive overruns the rule rather than the exception. This is fundementally wrong.
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Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays
Posted by J trainloco* on Wed May 30 18:47:55 2012, in response to Re: When a New Transit Project Is Announced, Expect Delays, posted by kp5308 on Wed May 30 17:50:19 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Ahhh,so this is an agenda. The way you are always beating the same drum, especially related to CAHSR, leads me to that conclusion. Not based in reality due to my 25 years of experience I suppose. Cool, what role in particular? Understand that having 25 years of experience in an inustry doesn't mean that you can't have an agenda. The way you constantly beat up on CAHSR, with no real reason for doing so other than 'funding is uncertain'. I have pointed out numerous times that funding for large projects is almost NEVER obtained in full before construction starts, but you never present any additional arguments to support your viewpoint. What else am I supposed to believe? Although I will give you the "under budget sometimes" comment. Care to share a few of the public projects with us? A simple Google search will turn up the answer to that query.
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