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Political efforts to resurrect "Bergen Loop" to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 04:44:49 2012

Yup; the 30-mph crawl is back up from the dead for now.

Bergen Record

Amtrak's Gateway proposal includes 'Bergen Loop' to N.Y.C.

Tuesday April 24, 2012, 9:32 PM
BY KAREN ROUSE
STAFF WRITER
The Record
Bergen and Passaic county commuters could have a direct ride into New York if Amtrak’s proposed Gateway project is built, an official said Tuesday.

Amtrak spokesman Cliff Cole, citing an April 12 PowerPoint presentation, said Amtrak’s plan to build a pair of rail tunnels under the Hudson River to connect North Jersey with New York includes a “Bergen Loop option.”

He said that would allow trains carrying commuters on NJ Transit’s Pascack Valley and Main-Bergen lines to link into the Northeast Corridor to New York

Those lines don’t directly feed into the corridor; as a result, commuters transfer at Secaucus or Hoboken.

Cole said the option to construct a loop wasn’t in the original proposal. The project is now estimated to cost $14.5 billion.

“It was not in the initial documentation because we had not had a chance to formally sit down with NJ Transit from day one so we didn’t’ feel [it was] appropriate to go out publicly with that,” said Cole. “In public documentation, [there was] not a mention of a one-seat ride, but it’s always been part of Amtrak’s conceptual design.”

But NJ Transit spokesman John Durso Jr. declined to talk specifically about any conversations with Amtrak about Gateway.

NJ Transit called for further study. “A new component to a project that’s been in the public eye for more than a year clearly deserves further study and analysis,” Durso said. “I’m talking about this proposed loop they’re now choosing to highlight.”

Durso said NJ Transit is talking to all interested parties about options for the cross-Hudson commute.

Amtrak introduced the Gateway project in February 2011, four months after Governor Christie — citing cost overruns — canceled an NJ Transit tunnel project known as Access to the Region’s Core, or ARC.

ARC included a rail loop in Secaucus that would have allowed commuters from Bergen and Passaic counties to board at their local stations and travel along a track that looped into the Northeast Corridor. When Christie killed ARC, supporters lamented the loss of the direct ride.

Martin Robins, director emeritus of the Voorhees Transportation Center at Rutgers University, said the loop is a touchy subject because the cost would be a burden for the party that has to pay for it.

Cole said on Tuesday that the only party to benefit from a Bergen loop would be NJ Transit, not Amtrak. “How this portion of the project would be constructed and funded is still to be determined, and is part of our ongoing discussions with NJ Transit.”


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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 10:25:39 2012, in response to Political efforts to resurrect "Bergen Loop" to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 04:44:49 2012.

Assuming the unlikely event that they get money for this, they would have to divide the pot of 13TPH between NWK and HOB Divisions. So they are in effect saying (which is also what I think) is that Gateway is a poor project for commuters if only for the NWK Division. It is a lever to get more FTA funding for what is basically an Amtrak project. Amtrak is not normally a part of FTA's jurisdiction.

The more Gateway morphs into ARC, the greater the likelihood it will also be killed.

This was obviously prompted by Lhota declaring #7 to SEC "not in anybody's lifetime", then throws in a diversionary tactic to send the #7 further south on West Side Hwy.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Apr 28 13:38:46 2012, in response to Political efforts to resurrect "Bergen Loop" to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 04:44:49 2012.

Definitely not going to happen: it will just get killed. I feel like this was prompted by someone at NJT trying to save face over their insistence in keeping all 35 dual modes.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect "Bergen Loop" to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot


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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 13:47:41 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Apr 28 13:38:46 2012.

We can only imagine what is really going on in their heads.

This infatuation with ALP45DM's, by a theoretically tight-wad Republican Exec Dir and Board Chairman no less, indicate a kick-back scheme with BBD.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 13:52:16 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Apr 28 13:38:46 2012.

And north Jersey residents who thought their "suffering" by having to change in Secaucus as well.

Look at the ridership numbers. The Bergen County, PVL and Main line ridership combined is only slightly more than the RVL alone, 5000 less than the NJCL and only 20% of the NEC. The Morristown line alone carries 50K riders a day and badly needs more Midtown Directs. There's no justification sapping capacity by shorter trains carrying relatively fewer people. Even with ARC or Gateway or whatever it's called being built, all additional capacity should go to more heavily used lines which can exploit an already existing connection to the north river tunnels.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 13:54:57 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 13:47:41 2012.

You still stuck on party labels, aren't you. No matter the party, if he's pro-pork, he's liberal, and by definition corrupt.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 13:55:57 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 13:47:41 2012.

Not necessarily. These dual modes allow you to pander to as many constituents as possible by claiming they can give all diesel riders a one seat ride into Manhattan.

If I were a NJ politician, I'd be wary of spending billions to make it EASIER for my residents to work in New York.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 13:59:27 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 13:55:57 2012.

What about CT politicians? They don't even have a commuter railroad in their state's name . . . it's the New York one.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Apr 28 14:01:29 2012, in response to Political efforts to resurrect "Bergen Loop" to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 04:44:49 2012.

You get more ridership with efficient connections and frequent service than you do with one seat rides. Japan and Europe are built around the connection model of transit. One seat rides are only popular if connections are unreliable.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 14:07:00 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 13:59:27 2012.

True, but that RR also pulls a lot of NY residents to work in CT. Probably not as much as those who work in NY and live in CT. CT isn't really as much of an employment competitor as NJ is.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 14:10:07 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 13:52:16 2012.

The numbers I have from NJT show the Main/Bergen (no Port Jervis, not Pascack) slightly higher than the RVL, but not by much. 35% go to NYPS, 51% go to HOB.

The numbers also show it makes no sense to axe a NEC, NJCL, or M&E train from NYPS to make way for a RVL, which overall sends just 39% of its passengers to NYPS, and no train exceeds 7 cars, most being 6.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 14:10:44 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Apr 28 14:01:29 2012.

1,000 agree. Frequency trumps one-seat ride.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 14:15:30 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 14:07:00 2012.

Connecticut probably saves a lot of administrative costs by not having a "Connecticut Transportation Authority". If they had it, what would they do with it ? Hire a lot more useless bureaucrats to oversee Metro North, Shore Line East, and Connecticut Transit buses ? (that didn't work too well in Nassau County for 39 years). Trains and buses run just fine without them.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 14:17:06 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 14:15:30 2012.

It's a surrender of sovereignty to NY State though. And they still do have a Department of Transportation that has to look after their segment of the Northeast Corridor from the NYS border to the Amtrak-owned segments.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 14:18:19 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Apr 28 14:01:29 2012.

They still don't have their trains not terminate within the city limits though. That's what's making the NJ politicians all itchy and whatnot.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 14:26:43 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 14:10:07 2012.

I'm using Wikipedia, which shows a combined ML/BCL ridership of about 11K.

I think ridership patterns would change on the RVL if trains went directly to NYP. Right now, if you lived in it's service area and had the option of working in Jersey City or Newark, you'd take it.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 14:27:40 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 14:18:19 2012.

NJ politicians think everyone on the rail side takes NJT to Manhattan or works in Manhattan. In fact 42% of the rail ridership does not go to NYPS. The Lincoln Tunnel has twice the market share of the NEC tunnels.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 14:34:47 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 14:27:40 2012.

That's what the "double the number of trains" rhetoric was all about. The public be damned, eh?

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 15:01:18 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 14:26:43 2012.

I don't know about the RVL- there is not much bus competition: just the 113 & 117, which has a lot of walk-in/drop off business at bus stops. They would not fit in station parking lots and they are not expanding. Westfield ain't Cranford, and they will never build a deck. The 114 is really a local, an excrutiatingly slow one at that, that turns its riders over once or twice between Bridgewater and Manhattan.

The NJT numbers I have (NJT publishes a quarterly rider analysis pdf) is daily loadings (which is double the actual number of people):

RVL: 21,400 (NYPS = 8,150, 38%)
Main/Bergen: 26,200 (NYPS = 9,200, 35%)
Pascack: 6,850 (NYPS = 1,850, 27%)


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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 15:03:58 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 14:34:47 2012.

Well that is just goofy math. Double the tunnels does not mean double the trains. 23 TPH to Macy's Bunker was just a lie.

Now they are more honest with 13 NJT and 8 Amtrak, with NJT, new and existing, mostly shunted off to a stub terminal to boot.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 15:20:17 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 15:01:18 2012.

I don't know about the RVL- there is not much bus competition: just the 113 & 117, which has a lot of walk-in/drop off business at bus stops

Don't forget about the 114. Back in the 80s, there used to be a lot more bus "competition" as well, when routes 143, 148 and 222 were operating (and even the 15, nowadays the 112, used to go all the way to Fanwood via Clark on some trips).

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 28 15:28:34 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Apr 28 14:01:29 2012.

I'm all for transferring vs one-seat rides, but if adding a one-seat ride for riders increases land values, it might not be the worst thing in the world.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 15:30:34 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by J trainloco on Sat Apr 28 15:28:34 2012.

Righty-o. Let's reconnect the River LAHN to the Northeast Corridor once more in that case.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 15:37:46 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 15:20:17 2012.

I commented about the 114. Manhattan business tends to be Plainfield and east where it runs thru different towns than the train, so not entirely competition. I have ridden it thru several times. Painful, but an interesting experience.

What did the 143, 148, and 222 do ?

I have a postcard of a maroon Old Look Suburban with route sign for 140-Somerville, which is present-day 114.


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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 15:53:44 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 15:37:46 2012.

The 143 and 222 shared the same timetable, which is why NJT combined them into the 113—but when they did that, they cut the service in half, i.e. the 143 and 222 operated double the number of buses over the South Avenue corridor versus the 113 even back in the late 80s. Only significant differences route-wise are that the 143 (today's 113S) terminated on West 7th Street in Plainfield and didn't operate to Dunellen as today, and the 222 (today's 113N) operated via Bayway and got on the NJTP at Exit 13 versus operating on North Avenue and North Broad Street in North Elizabeth and Hillside.

The 148 was today's 114; the 114 is virtually identical to the 148.

The 140 and 141 are today's 65 and 66 respectively—but the 66 operates via Hillside town (Liberty Avenue) to Vauxhall Road instead of getting on US 22 between North Broad Street/Elizabeth Avenue and Vauxhall Road (this replaced the former route 39/48's operation to Vauxhall Road/Roger Avenue loop, the loop still being in situ). There has been no service to/from Westfield as on the old 141 (which operated via New Providence Road and Mountain Avenue East to get to Broad Street). Most route 65 trips do not go further west than Dunellen, with one terminating in Bound Brook westbound in the AM and two westbound trips reaching Bridgewater Commons. There is one route 66 trip that departs Dunellen at 8:20 AM during the weekdays too.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 17:41:19 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 15:53:44 2012.

I rode the one and only 65 from Somerville to Newark one afternoon 2 years ago. I never understood why they run out there. There was never more than a dozen people on it, maybe keep school commuters off the 114, but there were none. They do ride the train however.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by merrick1 on Sat Apr 28 17:48:01 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 14:17:06 2012.

MetroNorth is just the contract operator for the commuter rail in Connecticut, just as NJ Transit is the contract operator for New York's East of Hudson service and MBCR is the contract operator in Massachusetts and Rhode Island.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Apr 28 22:27:48 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 13:55:57 2012.

If I were a NJ politician, I'd be wary of spending billions to make it EASIER for my residents to work in New York.

One could argue that this is a reason why we should abolish state governments and reorganize around regional governments that can focus on regional growth and land use, while avoiding duplicative structures.

Regardless, the question is if it's better to spend the money to allow residents to have greater access to the job market that New York provides, especially for high end jobs in FIRE, or should the state risk having residents move to New York if connections are better there, or leave the metro area entirely?

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Apr 28 22:28:42 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Apr 28 14:01:29 2012.

You get more ridership with efficient connections and frequent service than you do with one seat rides.

So why do you nag on certain railfans when they advocate for equipment that provides for high levels of service. :-)

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 22:30:42 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Apr 28 22:27:48 2012.

this is a reason why we should abolish state governments and reorganize around regional governments

Thanks for your opinion, Governor Tarkin.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 28 22:41:12 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Apr 28 22:27:48 2012.

It's been tried upstate. Bloody disaster. :)

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 28 22:58:01 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Apr 28 13:38:46 2012.

They'd be better off trying to build a station downtown that goes from Hoboken's East End and (longer-term) connects to the LIRR's Atlantic Avenue Branch. That is if the ALP-45DPs do work as promised. Of course, then that might induce changes of plans such as replacing planned HBLR on the Northern Branch with a "one-seat ride" to Manhattan and such . . . and expansion of the Waterfront Connection to allow Trenton-NY Other Station trains and Bay Head-NY Other Station (for want of a better name) . . .

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 29 14:39:30 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Apr 28 22:27:48 2012.

Interesting idea, but grossly unconstitutional. You couldn't even amend the constitution to permit that.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 29 14:42:07 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 28 15:01:18 2012.

You can see that residents adapt to the service provided. If all of these lines ran directly into NYP, the percentages would change dramatically over a period of a decade or so. Just look at the former M&E lines. I bet less than 30% use Hoboken today.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by merrick1 on Sun Apr 29 14:59:35 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 29 14:39:30 2012.

The United States is a union of sovereign states. The states are not just administrative subdivisions of the federal government.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 15:08:17 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by merrick1 on Sun Apr 29 14:59:35 2012.

Correct.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by merrick1 on Sun Apr 29 15:12:31 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 15:08:17 2012.

New Jersey has always been in its current situation. Ben Franklin called it "a barrel tapped at both ends."

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Apr 29 15:39:39 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 29 14:39:30 2012.

If you change the Constitution, you can make all sorts of crazy laws!

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by znufrii on Sun Apr 29 16:08:05 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 29 14:39:30 2012.

it could be completely constitutional, just politically impossible. All you'd have to do is persuade each state to let the relevant counties secede, and who would then apply for admission as a new state under the current constitutional requirements.

That said, it's never going to happen.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 16:09:12 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 28 13:52:16 2012.

And north Jersey residents who thought their "suffering" by having to change in Secaucus as well

The laugh is that when SEC was being built, that was touted as the big panacea for travel to Midtown. And there was no mention of the magical 30-mph loop back between 1995 and 2003, when options like Alternative G to Grand Central's lower level were still being considered and SEC was just opening. (Never mind Modified Alternative AA, an extremely weird option.)

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 16:10:10 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by znufrii on Sun Apr 29 16:08:05 2012.

it could be completely constitutional

Not without completely destroying the original US constitution, tovarishch.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 16:58:40 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Apr 29 15:39:39 2012.

LOL!

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 16:59:10 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Apr 28 22:28:42 2012.

You mean like converting PATH to HBLR?

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 29 18:31:28 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 29 14:42:07 2012.

M&E is:
71% NYPS
4% Newark
13% Hoboken
11% Local

I don't necessarily agree with the M&E analogy for other lines anyway:

- M&E ridership was suppressed due to a long, painful re-electrifcation program in the 1980's, and so had room to grow
- There is not much parking left on any rail line
- there was no access to NYPS from the M&E prior to MDT. You sweated out PATH just to get you to Herald Square, then likely another subway ride.
- Today all lines have it via transfer at Newark Penn, Newark Broad, or Secaucus,
- Service to Hoboken is lousy, hence people don't use it, especially off-peak

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 19:06:51 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 29 18:31:28 2012.

Service to Hoboken is lousy

. . . by design. NJT's great at that "all eggs in one basket" thing, and of course reaping the whirlwhind.

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(1153825)

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by znufrii on Sun Apr 29 21:03:33 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 16:10:10 2012.

Not without completely destroying the original US constitution

Doesn't sound like it to me...


Article 4, Section 3.

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.


Next time do your research before you crawl out of your cave to spout nonsense at me.

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Apr 29 21:05:58 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Apr 29 15:39:39 2012.

Now you're catching on!

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 21:11:17 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Apr 29 21:05:58 2012.

. . . and you're anti-American.

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(1153835)

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 21:26:27 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by znufrii on Sun Apr 29 21:03:33 2012.

If you bothered to read what you were responding to, it was not about that at all—it was about violating the ninth and tenth amendments. And FWICS, it's you doing the crawling out of caves, tovarishch.

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(1153838)

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Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot

Posted by znufrii on Sun Apr 29 21:50:17 2012, in response to Re: Political efforts to resurrect ''Bergen Loop'' to connect to Amtrak Gateway afoot, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 21:26:27 2012.

Hardly the entire constitution, then, and they happen to have absolutely no relevance to the proposal at hand. Try again.

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