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Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Apr 20 04:12:12 2012

I had a thought today. The three original Dual Contracts-era IRT terminals, namely Woodlawn, Pelham Bay Parkway, and 241st Street all opened within two years of each other.

Of the three, Woodlawn and Pelham are quite similar in design, with the block end enveloped by platform, and a sizable crew quarters. 241st Street, on the other hand, has the bumping blocks practically hanging off the structure, with absolutely nothing special at the end of the station.




I'm curious as to why 241st Street was so different. They must not have had a decent crew room there until the "elevated" crew facility was built in the 2000s.

(1152075)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 20 04:31:12 2012, in response to Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by G1Ravage on Fri Apr 20 04:12:12 2012.

I am going to guess that those stores at 241 were already there making it difficult to construct those tower like structures like you see at Woodlawn and VC.

(1152076)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Apr 20 04:39:12 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 20 04:31:12 2012.

It just occurred to me that Ditmars Boulevard is similar in design to 241st Street as a terminal, minus the side platforms, of course.

(1152077)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 20 04:42:47 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by G1Ravage on Fri Apr 20 04:39:12 2012.

Wasn't Ditmars supposed to be a temporary terminal?

(1152081)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 05:12:20 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 20 04:31:12 2012.

Or, could they at that time been looking to extend the line further north, even perhaps into Yonkers for instance?

(1152088)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Apr 20 07:08:45 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 05:12:20 2012.

Wasn't the actual construction done by the City of New York, rather than by the Interborough company? If so, I don't think there was any possibility of extending beyond the City limits into Mount Vernon (it's not Yonkers). And 241st station is of course just a few blocks from the city line.

I think it may have to do with the presence of parks. Woodlawn and Pelham Bay Park stations border Van Cortlant Park and the actual Pelham Bay Park. The two stations on the White Plains Road line that DO have the concrete exterior are Bronx Park East and Pelham Parkway, which are above or very close to parkland. Mosholu Parkway on the Woodlawn line also has concrete cladding. 241st St. and Ditmars Blvd. stations were not built adjacent to park land, and so lacked the added ornamentation.

(1152090)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Apr 20 07:17:34 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Apr 20 07:08:45 2012.

Looking at these structures, that had my my instinctive first guess...but I also give some credence to the other poster who speculates that perhaps the property owners at 241st/WP Road successfully objected to such elaborate construction- it could have cost them their properties.

(1152114)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Apr 20 10:20:50 2012, in response to Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by G1Ravage on Fri Apr 20 04:12:12 2012.

It is perfectly clear to the LION.

The first two end flush with the end of the block, and that is where they built the entrance.

On the list one, the line ends in the middle of the block, and the station entrance is at the nearest cross road further back.

ROAR

(1152122)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 20 11:03:47 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 20 04:31:12 2012.

The #1 - 242nd Street-Van Cortlandt Park station is also placed at the middle of a wide street where it would seem possible for the builders of the subway to continue the line further north. However the terminal has its fare passageway at the north end just like the two stations already mentioned.

I think that part of the issue has to do with the location of the fare entrance and stairways.

At the 242nd Street station, the Pelham Bay Park station, and the Woodlawn Road station - the entrances to the station are at the north end of the station beyond the bumper blocks of the tracks. Thus it makes sense to "envelope" the station tracks with platforms and the end passageway fare structure.

At the 241st Street station it appears that the main entrance mezzanine is at the middle of the station with stairways to each platform. Thus there may not have been much of a need to build the end passageway fare structure.

Just my thoughts.
Mike


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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by MGL on Fri Apr 20 20:27:32 2012, in response to Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by G1Ravage on Fri Apr 20 04:12:12 2012.

The old crew room used to hang from under the tracks outside the fare control area. It had the worst employee mens rooms in the IRT.

The original employees mens room at Utica ave came a close second.

Flatbush was pretty bad also.

Michael

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 20 20:32:26 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Apr 20 05:12:20 2012.

I'm pretty sure this was as far north as the subway was going to get. I don't know of any other terminal closer to the city's outer border than this one.

(1152237)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Alex L. on Fri Apr 20 21:18:58 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by MGL on Fri Apr 20 20:27:32 2012.

Always thought the worst one was at New Lots station.

(1152247)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Asgard on Fri Apr 20 23:29:00 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Apr 20 07:08:45 2012.

"Mosholu Parkway on the Woodlawn line also has concrete cladding"

Also, Pelham Parkway and White Plains Road.

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Asgard on Fri Apr 20 23:32:45 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 20 11:03:47 2012.

"The #1 - 242nd Street-Van Cortlandt Park station is also placed at the middle of a wide street where it would seem possible for the builders of the subway to continue the line further north. However the terminal has its fare passageway at the north end just like the two stations already mentioned."

I remember hearing -- from Joe Cunningham, I think -- that the station building at 242nd is a standard Contract One structure, but perpendicular to the track. There was provision to move it to the usual position if the line were to be extended northward.

(1152260)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by G1Ravage on Sat Apr 21 03:41:26 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by MGL on Fri Apr 20 20:27:32 2012.

Where was this room at Utica? Not where the current crew room is? (The one on the catwalk adjacent to Track 4, south of the station.)

(1152261)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by NewLots to 242 on Sat Apr 21 03:55:26 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Alex L. on Fri Apr 20 21:18:58 2012.

Why "worst"? The difference determining the layout is that at New Lots the tracks continue on past the station into Livonia Yard. If there were side platforms, there would be no way to connect them to the center or to each other, so no need to build them.

(1152303)

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Michael549 on Sat Apr 21 11:38:28 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by NewLots to 242 on Sat Apr 21 03:55:26 2012.

I think the description of the "worst" was in reference to the "crew room" not to the track layout, the platform layout or other aspects of the station. The importance of the crew room is very high it seems at least according to the folks who actually work for the MTA.

Mike



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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by merrick1 on Sat Apr 21 11:46:14 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Michael549 on Sat Apr 21 11:38:28 2012.

Do people pick based on the quality of the crew room?

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Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 22 12:54:28 2012, in response to Re: Old IRT Bronx terminal design, posted by Alex L. on Fri Apr 20 21:18:58 2012.

On a fantrip, I used the one at 2nd Ave. Felt really bad for V crews. Scary.


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