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| Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle (1149789) | |
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| (1150938) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:42:55 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by SLRT on Sat Apr 14 12:27:03 2012. When was the BMT directional system changed after unification? The only change I know of was made after Chrystie when the QJ and later the M were through routed with the Southern Div. |
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| (1150939) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:45:20 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 14 12:32:45 2012. Until the through routing of the M to the Brighton Line circa 1972 the M and its predecessor the Myrtle/Chambers was always NORTHBOUND leaving Met going towards Broad St and Chambers before that. |
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| (1150940) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:48:55 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 19:52:34 2012. If you want to be a true and accurate railroad and transit historian, you should care about using proper terminology. Incidentally, the tracks of the BMT Eastern are numbered in such a way as to indicate Manhattan bound as being northbound. Even numbered tracks are north and odd numbered tracks are south and that is the way all Eastern division tracks are numbered. |
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| (1150941) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:56:06 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 19:55:04 2012. It wasn't really a waste of money as it was intended to have the entire Fulton St el rebuilt end to end. Part of the failure to complete the rebuild was due to political wrangling about the Ashland Place connection from Fulton to the 4 Av Subway, the possible relocation of the Fulton el off old Fulton St in downtown Bkln to Adams St and the seemingly unrelated issue of who would pay for a new station on the Bway Bkln el at Willy B Plaza, the BRT or the city. With these issues being unresolved, no further work was done on the Fulton St el and with an el structure incapable of carrying the steel cars of the era, the construction of the IND Fulton St subway as a replacement for the el was an inevitable consequence. |
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| (1150947) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 06:17:59 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:56:06 2012. I don't mean waste of money in the true sense of the word, I mean it in such that it's a shame that they wound up spending that for nothing. I know the real reasons they did, and I know the reasons that it was eventually replaced with the subway, but in a perfect world where you can see the future, imagine if they had spent that money instead on sending the terminal further than Lefferts, or some other expansion. That was a long stretch of el that had perfectly good dual contract el structure, between Franklin and Atlantic, identical in construction to the Broadway El, and was only used for about 25 years. |
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| (1150948) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 06:21:18 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:48:55 2012. LOL!!! I KNOW the "true" terminology, and don't CARE, I am talking normally, in railfan language. I was merely talking about the station infrastructure, and the SOUTH end of the station at Wyckoff is the part of the station closer to Knickerbocker. When talking about such, to use "railroad operation" direction instead of actual direction would be absurd.This is precisely why I slowly have been bowing out of the fanatical railfan community. |
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| (1150949) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 06:21:33 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:48:55 2012. LOL!!! I KNOW the "true" terminology, and don't CARE, I am talking normally, NOT in railfan language. I was merely talking about the station infrastructure, and the SOUTH end of the station at Wyckoff is the part of the station closer to Knickerbocker. When talking about such, to use "railroad operation" direction instead of actual direction would be absurd.This is precisely why I slowly have been bowing out of the fanatical railfan community. |
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| (1150974) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 10:34:32 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:48:55 2012. I'll just say Queens-bound J, etc. I don't care what the diagrams call it. |
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| (1150977) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Apr 15 10:49:08 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Wed Apr 11 14:30:44 2012. Cut to Curly with an expression of confusion on his face...:) |
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| (1150979) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Apr 15 10:56:44 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by monorail on Sun Apr 15 01:28:15 2012. It's simple - Moe has made it to the big time. OTOH now that he winds up in Queens at the other end of the line, it can cause a tad of confusion. |
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| (1150980) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Apr 15 11:01:44 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 11 20:48:14 2012. I can hear Gabe Kotter right now: "I'm so confused!!!" |
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| (1150981) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Apr 15 11:04:32 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 06:21:18 2012. At least Curly has a built-in excuse: he was a victim of soicumstance.:) |
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| (1150990) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Apr 15 12:12:12 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 10:34:32 2012. Good post....NO ONE but railfans would make an issue out if what the operational direction is. If I said the operational 'northbound' side of wyckoff instead of the 'south end' of the station...no one would know what i was talking about except obsessed railfans. |
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| (1150991) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Apr 15 12:13:36 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Apr 15 10:56:44 2012. Haha. Yeah....both sides are queensbound...lol. |
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| (1151006) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 15 13:02:00 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Apr 15 12:12:12 2012. The M line, as it's constituted now actually is running northbound out of Metro. That was always a weird quirk of the Essex St. connection. Any train from the eastern division using it would flip-flop south and north terminals. |
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| (1151023) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 15 15:41:16 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Apr 15 11:04:32 2012. check the NPR website for a nice memoir of "Uncle Shemp" byb a family member |
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| (1151024) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 15 15:43:58 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 06:21:18 2012. you might appreciate the Interstate signage near me. At a single on ramp point geographic NNW there are two sign 80 East, 580 West for the same freeway (until it splits 25 miles up) |
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| (1151062) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 17:38:43 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Apr 15 12:12:12 2012. I wouldn't say no one but railfans. As a former operating employee of the NYCTA proper terminology is much more significant than it might be to armchair railroaders who never operated a door, threw a switch or actually moved a train. |
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| (1151076) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 18:52:17 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 15 15:43:58 2012. Heh. That's different though, as you get on a road based on it's destination. So you look for I580 west considering your destination.The subway trains are different. No one is looking for a "northbound train", they are looking for an Uptown train, or a Downtown train, a Queens bound train, or a Brooklyn Bound train and so forth. They aren't looking for southbound or northbound train, and really could give a crap if the M is "southbound" or Northbound operationally. They only care if it's going downtown or uptown. Again, the absurdity that started this utter nonsense is talking about the physical south end of the station at Wyckoff. Who cares what direction the trains operate at directionally? |
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| (1151084) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 15 19:09:56 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 18:52:17 2012. in Boston the Red Line stations are marked Inbound and Outbound, but the designation reverses as you traverse downtown. And, yes the geographic direction means more to most of us. After all speaking of N or S in the case of the L is almost as silly as calling Wash--NY trains eastbound as the PRR did. The best however is the former SP which with unbelievable humility designated all trains as WB if bound toward San Francisco (headquarters) EB away. So the Coast Starlight had an odd # from LA to Oakland, then an even # Oakland to Portland. (never touches SF as it passes through the East Bay) |
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| (1151206) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 10:30:29 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 15 19:09:56 2012. in Boston the Red Line stations are marked Inbound and Outbound, but the designation reverses as you traverse downtown.Yup. And actually, that is the same for many (most?) of all the NY lines too (although of course we don't call them inbound and outbound). But if you think about it, just pick a line in Manhattan....aside from he ones that terminate in Manhattan, all the outbound trains are inbound also and visa versa |
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| (1151207) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 10:32:14 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 17:38:43 2012. Yeah, alright....but most normal people could give a crap. Who else would know, or even care that the south side of the Wyckoff station is the operational northbound side? You TRULY think that anyone outside of railfans and train people give a small shit about that? Really. |
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| (1151208) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 10:33:15 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 15 13:02:00 2012. Just imagine if it was the famous "fun" route of the Jamaica Center upper to Jamaica Center lower routing..... |
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| (1151212) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Apr 16 11:01:54 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Apr 15 18:52:17 2012. Consider the ultimate, if the M was ever extended VIA the Winthrop connection to Fresh Pond Rd.It would be a circle, or a completed LOOP. Trains would run CLOCKWISE, and COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. All Magnetic directions would be encountered, all railroad directions would be encountered, all trains would be inbound, and outbound, would be in play. A TERMINAL of some sort would be needed for crew changes and time schedules. Just like under a Christmas Tree. |
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| (1151213) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 11:04:50 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Apr 16 11:01:54 2012. Haha. I have thought about that many times, and was always a "fantasy" of mine. It's not even all that out of the question considering current infrastructure, as the New York Connecting RR ROW is right next to the M train at Metropolitan. If it were to be extended along that up to the Queens Blvd line, and connected, you would have a true loop, and the area served in between has no subway service, so would be a great addition to those neighborhoods.That says, it has little to no chance of ever happening, but it's a fun fantasy line! |
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| (1151214) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Apr 16 11:17:30 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 11:04:50 2012. One of my favorites, if not Favorite.If it ever did come about, I wonder if one direction would have heavier traffic than the other? Another Loopy line was to extend both the Hillside Ave "F" line, and the Archer Ave "E" line to Belmont Race Track, and returning on the others ROW. That is the F and E divide at Van Wyck. The F runs Clockwise, while the E runs Counter Clockwise. Both rejoin at Van Wyck for a return to Manhattan. |
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| (1151233) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 12:53:43 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Apr 16 11:17:30 2012. I guess it would depend on where you start and where you are going. While both ways in essence go to the same places, you would get there sooner or later depending on which direction you went. At least people wouldn't "get lost" by going the wrong way, as they would eventually get to where they were going, even if you were starting at Wyckoff Ave and wanted to go to Seneca Ave......even if you went towards Knickerbocker, you would still get to Seneca eventually, lol. |
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| (1151246) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Apr 16 13:32:14 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 04:42:55 2012. Under the BRT and the BMT the railroad directions were east-west. West was toward Park Row and later toward Broadway. An R train headed compass north on the 4th Avenue Line would be going "west." I think it's easy to see how much more sense that made.After Unification it was changed to conform to IND and IRT practice, but I'm not sure exactly when. Likewise, the SIRT was east-west, west was toward New Jersey, even if you were on a Tottenville train. I don't know what it is now. |
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| (1151345) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 16 19:50:41 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by SLRT on Mon Apr 16 13:32:14 2012. I do seem to recall having heard that somewhere, however it brings up another interesting question. If a 4 Av or Brighton lcl bound for Queens is considered westbound, had through service along both the Flushing and Astoria lines been able to be operated, would a through BMT train from south Bkln to Flushing still be considered "westbound" even though it was going physically east? Eve though that was never the case until 1949 with the Astoria Line, were the BMT Queens shuttles as logical extensions of the through services to which they were connected have been considered eastbound or westbound towards Flushing and Astoria. |
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| (1152004) | |
Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 19 20:22:04 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by randyo on Mon Apr 16 19:50:41 2012. The only place where I KNOW the railroad directions on the BMT reversed (and still do) is the south end of Chambers Street station.I am reasonably certain a train coming from Manhattan to Queensboro Plaza through the 60th Street Tunnel was going BMT railroad west. WHy? The track numbering. BMT westbound tracks were even-numbered, and so is G2 going compass east to Queens. |
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Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Apr 20 04:52:12 2012, in response to Re: Middle Track on the Myrtle, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 19 20:22:04 2012. In London, and Tokyo where they copied London, trains go up and down (meaning inbound and outbound) except on lines where they continue further, in which case they go N,E, S or W bound. And now most lines do so on too many lines. |
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