|
|
| BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California (1141661) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
| (1141661) | |
BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012 [listen] .mp3 or read text ...This year is BART’s 40th birthday. While some people swear that 40 is the new 30, when it comes to subway systems, 40 is just plain over-the-hill. About two-thirds of Bay Area Rapid Transit cars have been running the rails since the system opened, in 1972. Paul Oversier is in charge of operations at BART. He says that because BART trains run long distances and at higher speeds than other subway systems, it gives the system a dubious distinction. “We have the oldest cars, and we run them the hardest,” he says. It’s time for new trains. But building them won’t be cheap: BART estimates it will cost more than $3 billion to replace all 775 cars. Right now, three companies are in the running to build the new fleet. One is in France, one is in South Korea, and third is in Canada. Scott Haggerty is an Alameda County Supervisor who sits on the board of the Metropolitan Transportation Commission. He’s not surprised that bids for the massive job are coming in from all over the world, but he doesn’t think the world should build BART’s cars. “At a minimum, those cars should be built in the U.S.,” says Haggerty. “But that’s not even going to make me happy. Those cars should be built within the BART district.” On paper, it makes sense. Building BART cars here would mean keeping those billions of dollars, and thousands of jobs, where BART riders actually live. According to BART’s Paul Oversier, there’s just one problem. “There haven’t been any domestic subway car builders in the United States for decades,” he says. Oversier says even if BART wanted to give the contract to a U.S. company, they couldn’t do it – the last domestic company that built subway cars closed up shop in 1987. But, he says, that doesn’t mean no Americans will benefit from the project. “It’s really a misnomer to say the cars are being built overseas,” he says. “They’re being built in the United States, using American parts, using American workers. It just so happens that the corporation that’s operating that plant is an international corporation.” To understand how this works, you need to know about a law known as “Buy America.” It’s been around since 1983. Scott Paul is the executive director of the Alliance for American Manufacturing, an industry group based in Washington DC. He says it doesn’t matter if a company is foreign or domestic, as long as the manufacture happens in the U.S. “The idea is that through that taxpayer investment, we’ll be supporting jobs in this country as opposed to a place like China, for instance,” says Paul. The idea of buying American has guided some of the country’s signature transportation projects. As far back as 1933, Congress required that federally financed construction projects use American materials. “We’ve had this policy through the building of the interstate highway system,” says Paul. “Ronald Reagan actually expanded it to transit programs.” Almost three-quarters of the money BART is using to pay for the new cars comes from the federal government. Under Buy America, that means whichever company gets the contract has to do at least 60% of that work in the U.S. But BART doesn’t get to decide where in the U.S. that work gets done––they have to go where the companies are. So while the cars could be built in California, BART can’t require that. “There’s not an enormous demand for subway cars in the United States,” says Paul. “So it doesn’t make a lot of sense for several manufacturers to have a permanent presence when the market is so sporadic and limited to just a few big city agencies.” Right now, none of the car builders BART is considering have plants in California. That’s what bothers Supervisor Scott Haggerty. He thinks agencies like BART should be able to use federal dollars to do their projects in-state––and to encourage companies to set up new plants here. Right now, that’s illegal. “But who set that rule?” asks Haggerty. “When you say it’s illegal, that’s because Congress said it’s illegal. Congress can fix that.” Last year, BART officials sponsored legislation in California allowing them to give extra weight to bids from foreign companies that exceed Buy America requirements. So now the agency can legally reward companies that create more American jobs. But that doesn’t change the fact that there’s no infrastructure to do the work in California. Right now, the car builders BART is considering have plants in New York and Philadelphia. “But that’s not to say that they might not open a plant somewhere else,” says BART’s Paul Oversier. “It’s a big enough order that the economics might be such for the car builders that it might make sense, from a business standpoint, to open a plant somewhere else. But that bridge will be crossed later on.” BART expects final bids on the new cars by the end of February. The agency hopes to make a final recommendation to the board in about six weeks. ---http://transportationnation.org/2012/02/22/barts-new-fleet-made-in-the-usa-but-maybe-not-in-california/ |
|
|
| (1141666) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 25 12:59:20 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. That's horribly inefficient to have all of these foreign car builders set up what would effectively be a one off plant just for a specific order. If lawmakers want those jobs, provide money for BART to build its own factory then contract out a car builder to use it for a specific order. |
|
|
| (1141676) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 13:09:32 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. waaaaa, my Chevy isn't from a CA assembly plant. Haggerty is so lame. We used to have four functioning US transit car builders. When at least one transit property placed an order every year there was work. During the drought after most streetcars were dumped, there wasn't enough work to keep the lights on in the factories let alone employ anyone. ACF closed, St Louis, P-S next, Budd bought by Germans and closed. Most of us remember the M-K fiasco--perhaps a noble effort, but a financial disaster. So, now there are foreign owned assembly plants here which get the work. As posts on this board regularly report, there are QC issues, cultural issues between ESL bosses and US workers, and other problems. Frankly, I much prefer a foreign owned company building cars here to a pseudo US company (think a common fruit) using essentially slave labor in some authoritarian dump to make products for us. End rant |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1141679) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 13:16:51 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. I'm surprise Kawasaki didnt bid or was disqualified. |
|
|
| (1141682) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 13:21:06 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 25 12:59:20 2012. Actually since each of these dumb transit agencies insists on custom cars (did NO ONE learn anything from the success of the PCC?) it makes little difference where the assembly line is as long as the local warm bodies know which end of a wrench/screw gun/rivet gun/ to handle.Question for Sand Box John. were the Amtrak assembled Bredas better or worse built than others? |
|
|
| (1141690) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by merrick1 on Sat Feb 25 13:32:43 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 13:21:06 2012. Was the PCC really a success? It was supposed to save the trolley systems. It certainly failed in that respect.It was also a less than ideal design for some of the places it was used. For example, in Boston the single left side door was a somewhat awkward design. |
|
|
| (1141714) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 14:29:58 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by merrick1 on Sat Feb 25 13:32:43 2012. They ran well, they were "production" w/options kinda like common automobiles rather than one-offs. PCC technology did very nicely in Cleveland, Boston, and Chicago for rapid transit cars. To say PCCs failed because bonehead "modernisation" promoters used one way streets and other auto favoring designs is erroneous. For instance PCCs ran until 62 in DC. Why were they junked? Congress demanded it. What was their weakest aspect? The idiotic conduit system which regularly shorted out in the winter after salt was spread to melt snow. And FWIW DC showed (Silver Sightseer) that PCCs could be air conditioned. When you visit SF take a ride on the jam packed "failing" F line. |
|
|
| (1141728) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 25 15:34:13 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Feb 25 12:59:20 2012. provide money for BART to build its own factory then contract out a car builder to use itBut who's responsible for the plant facilities and employees when the plant is sitting idle and the deliveries are finished? Nobody wants to pay people to sit around and do nothing for ten years awaiting work on the next batch of cars for BART, and it remains to be seen if said plant will even see work for other systems to recoup its costs. FWIW, in nearby Sacramento, there is the Siemens plant which churns out Avantos, SD160s, and eventually the CitiesSprinter for Amtrak. So far, the only manufacturer with an facility near the Bay Area, Siemens, hasn't bothered to bid, but they may simply not want to deal with the customization headaches for the BART units... |
|
|
| (1141751) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Feb 25 19:26:02 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 13:21:06 2012. Question for Sand Box John. were the Amtrak assembled Bredas better or worse built than others?They were and are a little more rugged compared to the Rhor cars. But then their structural specifications were a little stronger then the Rhor cars were. (every subsequent car procurement has been built to be more crash worth then the previous procurement) As to the quality of craftsmanship, as I recall they had less problems with them during acceptance testing then any of the car procurement. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
|
|
| (1141758) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 20:08:00 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Feb 25 19:26:02 2012. thanks. so there are 3 groups of Bredas if IINM. which were built by Amtrak, which otherwise. I am particularly curious as to the assembly quality differential between Breda "pop up" plants and Amtrak or any other shop regularly doing railcar work. |
|
|
| (1141761) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Feb 25 20:58:55 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 20:08:00 2012. thanks. so there are 3 groups of Bredas if IINM. which were built by Amtrak, which otherwise. I am particularly curious as to the assembly quality differential between Breda "pop up" plants and Amtrak or any other shop regularly doing railcar work.As I recall all were built by Amtrak, the 2k cars were the first order, the 3k cars were the first option, the 4k cars were the second option. Don't recall all the particulars as to who's decision it was, WMATA or Breda, to build the 4k cars with CD chopper controls as apposed to CD cam controls that were on the 3 and 3k cars. The WMATA CAF cars were built in a "pop up" plant, AAI in Hunt Vally Maryland operated the finally assemble facility. They were doing the work in a warehouse in Hunt Vally, during the same time they were also doing rehabilitation work on MUNI and NJ Transit cars in the same facility. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
|
|
| (1141767) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by blue8irt on Sat Feb 25 21:06:47 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. When it comes to equipment as large and as complex as trains, any kind of trains, it could make sense to standardize designs as much as possible. Of course there would have to be deviations needed for individual systems, but there could be many parts shared. Once a design is agreed upon, have the states that use them create a conglomerate to fund it. Make sure a plant is built (or existing plant) is in the U.S of A.. Do it this way to be free of federal government involvement, and apply for tax breaks like any other plan would get. This may sound far fetched, but I don't think it's impossible. There has to be some kind of all-American plan for us to rescue ourselves of not being able to build our own trains. When Philadelphia was mention, I cringed at the thought of that company building anyone's equipment as Rotem has had so many problems building there. Maybe all of those problems have been worked out. You may say I'm a dreamer.......................... |
|
|
| (1141771) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Feb 25 21:27:04 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. OK, I get that the 'A' (original cab cars) and 'B' (original trailers) cars need to be replaced since they are 40 years old, but the 'C' cars? The first C cars (301-450, or is it 300-449?) are only 27 years old, and the C2 cars (2501-2580) are only 17 years old! Dunno what gives. Even if the new (D?) cars are uncompatiable with the Cs, they could still run a few all C trains. Maybe BART doesn't want to have a train of all cab cars, even some operating as trailers, so they are just going to dump everything and start over. Kinda wasteful, IMO. And the worst thing is, since BART operates that weird wide gauge (5 feet?), they probably won't send any to museums. :( |
|
|
| (1141772) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by orange blossom special on Sat Feb 25 21:29:14 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. Article was more interesting than the headline suggested.Wonder if the infrastructure in those closed auto plants are any good for the task. |
|
|
| (1141776) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 25 21:56:01 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 14:29:58 2012. Rehabbed PCCs (PCCIIs) from what I understand are doing quite nicely in Philly also not to mention the application of PCC technology to rapid transit cars in Boston and Chicago. Unfortunately, it's rather ironic that one of the cities where significant PCC development took place, New York (Brooklyn) was not able to avail itself of that technology due to the shortsighted attitude of certain politicians. |
|
|
| (1141783) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 23:06:29 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Feb 25 21:27:04 2012. Well, rational behavior is in short supply at BART. |
|
|
| (1141802) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Feb 26 08:21:14 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sat Feb 25 21:27:04 2012. I think all this has more to do with the recommendations that the NTSB made about the crash worthiness of WMATA's rolling stock.Bart hasn't had the safety problems that WMATA has had but they want to cover their asses and retire their rolling stock that is very similar to the WMATA rolling stock. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
|
|
| (1141825) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by blue8irt on Sun Feb 26 12:55:53 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. Brrrr, sure is cold in here. |
|
|
| (1141827) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 26 13:12:47 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by orange blossom special on Sat Feb 25 21:29:14 2012. assembly plants can be reconfigured. Chrysler's earlier bankruptcy was "bailed out" among other reasons because they were building the "Leopard" tank. GM made M16s at the height of the VietNam war at triple the cost from the original patent holder who did not have enough production capacity. |
|
|
| (1141872) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sun Feb 26 17:38:19 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Feb 26 08:21:14 2012. Hmm, well the As and Bs were built by Rohr, but they definitely need to go anyway. C(1)s are from Alstom, and C2s are Morrison-Knudsen, so I take it that the NTSB thinks they aren't up to snuff either, re crash worthiness? |
|
|
| (1141969) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Sand Box John on Mon Feb 27 06:57:34 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Sun Feb 26 17:38:19 2012. . . . so I take it that the NTSB thinks they aren't up to snuff either, re crash worthiness?As far as I know the NTSB has not specifically pointed out the similarity and made a recommendation. It is my understanding that the Rohr built bart cars are structurally very similar to the Rohr built WMATA cars. That being said and the fact that bart cars have 2 door opening per side compared to the 3 doors in WMATA cars, I don't know if the bart cars have developed stress crack in them like WMATA cars have.  Door opening nearest to end of Rohr built WMATA car. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
|
|
| (1142021) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Feb 27 12:45:42 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. Right now, the car builders BART is considering have plants in New York and Philadelphia.Hyundai-Rotem is hoping to build these? |
|
|
| (1142022) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 27 12:49:40 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Feb 27 06:57:34 2012. haven't seen such gussets on BART cars, though when the A/B Rohrs were overhauled they could have done this on the inside. Will look harder next ride. |
|
|
| (1142023) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 27 12:54:29 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Feb 27 12:45:42 2012. hungry to recoup losses? most enterprises are willing to lose money on the first project as "purchase of market" but then hope to make back the investment on succeeding projects/products. IBM who did the original BART faregates even publicly admitted they had lowballed the bid to get in and hoped to then make up on follow on work.Sad that Kawasaki apparently isn't interested. |
|
|
| (1142024) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Gold_12TH on Mon Feb 27 13:42:01 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Feb 27 12:45:42 2012. Hyundai-Rotem, South KoreaAlstom Transport, France Bombardier Transport, Canada |
|
|
| (1142060) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by blue8irt on Mon Feb 27 17:46:57 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. So no one thinks an American company can be started to build any railcars here? WTF? |
|
|
| (1142104) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 27 20:52:26 2012, in response to BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 25 12:22:03 2012. OK . . . so what? The vast majority of NYC's subway fleet wasn't made in NY state, even going back decades. |
|
|
| (1142121) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 27 22:22:52 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by blue8irt on Mon Feb 27 17:46:57 2012. we build freight cars. there is a company in Oregon building streetcars. Brookville rehabs PCCs.The issue of US owned companies building LR,subway, or EMUs mostly relates to a very unstable market. There are 2 active EMU projects at the moment--not enough to sustain a stand alone enterprise without extremely deep pockets and enough other market segments to sustain cash flow. Note that Budd was already German owned before it stopped building rail cars. From another POV, many US built railcars have not been very well built over the last 4 decades. Sainted Budd gave us the Seldom Powered Vehicle, Boeing gave us the terrible Standard Light Rail Vehicle, and I think we can politely say the last PS and SLC cars for the subway had "issues". |
|
|
| (1142124) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by BLE-NIMX on Mon Feb 27 23:10:22 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 23:06:29 2012. Paul Oversier was a chief transportation officer at NYCT in the 90s. Does that help understand where BART is? |
|
|
| (1142144) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Sand Box John on Tue Feb 28 06:57:53 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 27 12:49:40 2012. haven't seen such gussets on BART cars, though when the A/B Rohrs were overhauled they could have done this on the inside. Will look harder next ride.Inside or outside there would be evidence of rivets if the gussets were similar. The fact that bart cars are 70' long (WMATA 75'), have 2 door per side (WMATA 3) and they are further from ends may have saved them from developing the stress cracks. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
|
|
| (1142169) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Feb 28 12:10:43 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by BLE-NIMX on Mon Feb 27 23:10:22 2012. Funny you mention that. He is the staffer who says BART can run 24 service because "unlike NYC, we don't have express tracks". Guess he never spent any time on the G, L, R below 59th, Flatbush IRT, etc. Could you take him back? |
|
|
| (1142222) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by blue8irt on Tue Feb 28 19:06:07 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 27 22:22:52 2012. Ok. So I am sort Out-of-the-know when it comes to what's going on now. But with all the subway cars in this country, why couldn't a new company be started up? You know, the "where are the jobs" thing that's going on. Just saying.asking. |
|
|
| (1142234) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Feb 28 22:24:26 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by blue8irt on Tue Feb 28 19:06:07 2012. "all the subway cars..." No sane transit agency would give a startup a contract for a fleet. Frankly, BART was very stupid to have gone w/Rohr instead of a competent builder. Rohr did the DOD low ball dance very nicely by underpricing the initial car order knowing none of the others would compete for the follow on which then was much more expensive--sole source trumps bidding.So, much as I might like to see US owned companies doing the work, unless some large industrial firm with a good reputation for well made products decides to enter the fray, it won't happen anytime soon. |
|
|
| (1142293) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 29 10:53:52 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by blue8irt on Tue Feb 28 19:06:07 2012. But with all the subway cars in this country, why couldn't a new company be started up?There is simply not enough demand for EMUs in general in this country. Aside from the New York and Chicago area, there aren't much any large players. |
|
|
| (1142295) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Feb 29 11:00:34 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 29 10:53:52 2012. There is simply not enough demand for EMUs in general in this countryEh? There's the same demand there always has been. NJT hasn't tipped the balance with their preference for push-pulls that isn't saving money (especially with the MLV brake inspections). If it was "enough" in the past, how is it not enough now? |
|
|
| (1142334) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Feb 29 15:32:49 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Feb 29 11:00:34 2012. Just look at how many EMU running interurbans shut down.How many electric lines in NJ and PA were de-electrified or shut down. Amtrak isn't running EMUs anymore. The NYW&B is no more, NH de-electrified some of its lines and there's the case of NJT. Do you really think that there has been more additions than subtractions or they're even? The demand is not the same. Besides, the US stopped exporting (well, making) EMUs and instead started importing them. Out of the industry for twenty years or so, it'll be very hard to take back the business. It won't help that the patents, rights and human power that kept pushing the technologies are now in the hands of those foreign owned companies. |
|
|
| (1142346) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Joe Saitta on Wed Feb 29 16:31:23 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 25 14:29:58 2012. And what about the foreign PCCs, some of which are still operating in Europe? Of all transit vehicles ever built, it would be fair to say this one had been the most successful and longest-lived. |
|
|
| (1142362) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Feb 29 19:20:01 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 26 13:12:47 2012. That's true, although I heard once it takes a LONG while to reconfigure.I was talking about the empty and closed buildings. Although since this is America, and worse in California, the upgrades for code probably makes it impossible vs building a steel building on the outskirts. |
|
|
| (1142407) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Feb 29 23:38:45 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Feb 29 19:20:01 2012. anyone who says it takes a long time obviously has no knowledge of WWII. As to code upgrades, they should happen no matter the location. Safety of the workforce is not negotiable. (execute Don Blankenship) |
|
|
| (1143992) | |
Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California |
|
|
Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Mar 10 12:13:11 2012, in response to Re: BART’s New Fleet: Made in the USA, but Maybe Not in California, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 25 21:56:01 2012. SEPTA only sent 18 PCC cars to Brookville for rebuilding (PCCII is SEPTA's moniker, there is NO PCC technology in the rebuilt cars) as the City forced them to put streetcars back on Girard Avenue. If more than 2 cars are in the shop, buses are put out to cover the missing cars. SEPTA wants NO surface streetcar operation save the subway-surface lines. |
|
|
