Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances

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Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Gold_12TH on Sun Feb 26 12:41:10 2012 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Subway Entrances? Not on Our Block THERE is talk that the proposed newcomer will bring riffraff to the block, or rats or outdoor urinators. That things will be noisier. Squishier. That property values will drop. Such are the fears running along 69th Street near Lexington Avenue, home to the Union Club, neo-Georgian homes and carriage houses. They are fears normally associated with the less-charming realities of urban life, like a homeless shelter or a late-night dive bar. But in this case, they are focused on something quite different: new entrances to a subway station. Some New Yorkers can only dream of having a subway train ferry them straight to their front door, but residents of East 69th Street say the entrances have no place on what they believe to be one of the prettiest streets around. They have formed a block association and hired lawyers, and they plan to tap an engineering firm to conduct transportation and environmental assessments that will likely show that the entrances can and should go elsewhere, or perhaps are not needed at all. Residents are feeling, in the words of one, “hysterical,” all the while trying to defuse charges of Upper East Side snobbery. “It’s not as though any of us are sitting there riding around in limos and saying other people should ride the subways, like Marie Antoinette,” said Charles Salfeld, who has lived at the Imperial House on East 69th Street since 1976. “What we object to is this access to and from the subway done at the expense of the residential and pristine quality of 69th Street.” The Metropolitan Transportation Authority says the entrances are needed to enable crowd flow because new elevators are to be built a block away, at the No. 6 line access points on East 68th Street. There has been resistance to new subway entrances before. Residents of a building on East 86th Street sued the transit authority a year ago in an effort to stop the construction of entrances to the coming Second Avenue subway outside their front doors; the suit was dismissed late last year. But Lois Tendler, the transit authority’s vice president of government and community relations, said resistance to elevator projects was rare and the “vociferousness of the concerns” in the latest conflict unusual. So is the nature of the residents’ complaints. People on East 86th Street feared the flood of people. The residents of East 69th Street share that fear, but a major thrust of their argument is that their blocks are simply too pretty. Indeed, by any measure, the north side of 69th Street on either side of Lexington Avenue is an urban gem, lined with elegant town houses and converted stables that evoke a New York from Edith Wharton’s time. Although the homes to the west of Lexington Avenue face the factorylike expanse of Hunter College — and to the east, looming apartment towers — the blocks are quiet, forming a microneighborhood that feels like an oasis from the clamor of New York, and perhaps even the 21st century, too. “At night you can take a bowling ball and it won’t hit anything,” said Bill Roskin, president of the freshly hatched neighborhood association. The transit authority says it has few other options. It is installing elevators at various stations in keeping with its agreement with the federal government to make 100 stops compliant with the Americans With Disabilities Act by 2020. Ms. Tendler said that to build the elevators at the 68th Street stop, which serves Hunter College, the existing exits must be shut temporarily, raising the issue of commuter access. Shuttering the station would be problematic; it is one of the busiest in the city, according to Ms. Tendler, and the nearest stations to the north and south are oversubscribed. Yet the platforms at the 68th Street stop extend underground to East 69th Street. For the agency, the answer was simple: just build permanent entrances there, which would also ease overcrowding once the original entrances reopen. The job is projected to cost $57 million and take just over three years, one of which would go to the construction of the entrances. But at community board meetings that touched on the matter in October and early January, neighbors yowled. The original plans showed subway entrances on the north side of East 69th Street, where the sidewalk is narrow and gorgeous old buildings sit. The agency said the image was for illustrative purposes only, but the damage was done: the sketches made it look as if subway travelers would be spit out at the wrought-iron door of a particularly gracious doorman building on the intersection’s northwest corner, a landmarked block. The controversy was first reported by the online news site DNAinfo. “As originally contemplated, it was absolutely preposterous,” said Richard Bourgerie, a retired lawyer who lives in an apartment there. “And not to be too crass about it, but it could detract from the value of the apartments in the building.” So residents, who insist they have no problem with elevators being installed, began pushing for alternatives. Surely the platform could be extended to East 70th Street, a more commercial corner, some said, or to East 67th Street. Or perhaps the existing entrances needn’t be shut during the construction period at all. They also noted that the Second Avenue subway, when opened, would ease the commuter burden on the Lexington Avenue line. But the transit authority said Hunter College would ensure that the stop stayed very busy, despite any siphoning off by the new Second Avenue line. Ms. Tendler also said East 67th Street was the site of a “very complicated switching system.” While the authority is considering the possibility of entrances there, which would be more expensive, it is now aiming to put the entrances on the south side of East 69th Street, which some residents still oppose. “Money might not be an object to people who live on 69th Street,” Ms. Tendler said, “but it is an object for us.” As the neighborhood association plots its counterproposal — it has hired the land-use lawyer Sid Davidoff — the transportation authority is conducting an environmental assessment that is expected to be completed around June. Architectural and historical preservation experts, for their part, said that while the authority could lessen the aesthetic impact on East 69th Street by building better-looking entrances, mass transit was an intrinsic part of urban life. Many landmarked areas share space with subway stations, after all. “Does it belong there? No,” said Andrew Alpern, an architectural historian. “But if we start saying we’re not going to allow subway entrances where there’s an architecturally or socially distinctive block, of course not — we can’t do that. That’s elitism of the worst sort.” He added: “But you can certainly take feelings into account, of how you put it in there. That’s a balancing-out that New York is famous for.” ---http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/nyregion/upper-east-side-residents-protest-proposed-subway-entrances.html?_r=2&hpw=&pagewanted=all
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40* on Sun Feb 26 14:30:42 2012, in response to Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Gold_12TH on Sun Feb 26 12:41:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d >:O(
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Michael549* on Sun Feb 26 15:05:53 2012, in response to Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Gold_12TH on Sun Feb 26 12:41:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d From the previous message: "But the transit authority said Hunter College would ensure that the stop stayed very busy, despite any siphoning off by the new Second Avenue line. Ms. Tendler also said East 67th Street was the site of a “very complicated switching system.” While the authority is considering the possibility of entrances there, which would be more expensive, it is now aiming to put the entrances on the south side of East 69th Street, which some residents still oppose." I am wondering about the "very complicated switching system”. At the northern end of the 59th Street-Lexington Avenue #6 local station (the upper level) the two local tracks spread to form a middle layup track. This middle track ended before the 68th Street station, however only trains coming uptown to 59th Street could make use of the middle track, think of it as a "pocket track". Unless of course the MTA has added approach switches headed south from the 68th Street station. (Similar to how such switches were added to the IND Central Park section between 72nd Street and 81st Street.) Has the MTA added additional switches to what used to be the pocket track north of the 59th Street-Lexington Avenue (upper level) #6 local station? Mike
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Sun Feb 26 15:55:09 2012, in response to Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Gold_12TH on Sun Feb 26 12:41:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d These are a bunch of people who are in my opinion mainly older people more concerned about their legacies and what they leave to their heirs, and in some cases it could be the heirs are ones really driving what's going on at 69th out of fear their property values could plummet when some of them are looking at that money from a sale of such property if they inherit it after the owner dies to pay off long-term debts of their own. That station needs a 69th Street exit badly. What I would be doing if I were at the MTA, however, is look to build such an entrance at the far northern end of the station and have the entrance between 69th and 70th on Lexington if that is such a concern. I would also be looking to add new entrances to the 77th Street station on the (6) on the south end at 76th street for which the main purpose would be for students at Wagner Junior High School (76th between 2nd and 3rd Avenues) and Eleanor Roosevelt High School (76th east of 1st Avenue). That would relieve pressure on the main entrance at 77th street on what is another of the busiest local-only stations in the system. You have to also wonder if it is feasible to build an express station under the existing station at 68th Street for the 4/5 as that has become one of the busiest local stations in the system. Given what is there, it may be time to look into the feasibility of doing so.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Dyre Dan* on Sun Feb 26 16:36:50 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Feb 26 15:55:09 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d That would make two adjacent local stations - 68th and 59th - into express stations. Not a good idea, it kind of defeats the point of the express. People can change at 86th or 59th. Plus, when the Second Ave. subway is finally built, it will have a 72nd St. station with an entrance, I think, at 70th St.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by numbersix* on Sun Feb 26 17:56:55 2012, in response to Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Gold_12TH on Sun Feb 26 12:41:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Ozone Park residents made the same complaint in 1947 about the 76th St. station. They got the entrances and the entire station removed.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by randyo* on Sun Feb 26 18:23:06 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by numbersix on Sun Feb 26 17:56:55 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d From old photos I have seen of the area, there were no residents in the immediate area of the proposed 76 St station to do any complaining. Also, at that time, residents in the outlying areas of the city would beg to have rapid transit in their neighborhood with a subway station as close as possible. From articles I have read in old Marine Park and Sheepshead Bay newspapers, many of the newly built homes in those areas were sold because real estate agents convinced potential home buyers that the IRT subway would soon be extended to the Sheepshead Bay area making their commutes more convenient.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by R36 #9346* on Sun Feb 26 18:53:04 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 26 15:05:53 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Nope!
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Concourse Express* on Sun Feb 26 19:18:29 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Feb 26 16:36:50 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The 72/2 sta. will have an additional entrance at 69. my blog
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Avid Reader* on Mon Feb 27 08:18:07 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Feb 26 16:36:50 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Tell that to 6Th Avenue. 47Th-50Th St, 42Nd Street, 34Th Street. Tell it to 8Th Avenue. 42Nd Street, and 34Th Street.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Dyre Dan* on Mon Feb 27 11:18:57 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Feb 27 08:18:07 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d 42nd and 34th on 8th (and 7th) Avenues are kind of a special case, because of Penn Station. 6th Ave. has mostly "express" stations because it was initially built with only one set of thru tracks. But the Lex express was built for fast thru service from lower Manhattan to Harlem and the Bronx. It was initially just four stops from Brooklyn Bridge to 125th Street, now it's five. I don't want it to be six. I used to commute from the Bronx to 68th St., and changing at 86th St. was not a big problem. The north mezzanine at 59th St. could also be used, or change at 125th to avoid some stairs at the cost of making a few extra stops. If 68th St. was made an express stop, then why shouldn't 51st St., with the transfer to the E and M? But then four stops in a row would be "express" stops. No thanks.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Hank Eisenstein* on Mon Feb 27 11:31:39 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 26 15:05:53 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They could mean electrical. Or signaling.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Tue Feb 28 00:52:55 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Feb 27 11:18:57 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I agree, but 68th is arguably one of the busiest local-only stations in the entire system. We may be at a point like we saw with 59th Street 50 years ago where it's time to make 68th a two-level express station if at all possible to take some pressure off the (6), especially with Hunter College there. As for 51st, as I recall there has been talk about also converting that into an express-local station, but I don't believe 51st is anywhere near as busy as 68th Street believe it or not.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Tue Feb 28 07:12:38 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Feb 28 00:52:55 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d It would be harder to know how many people pass through 51st Street. The number of fares paid might be lower than at 68th Street, but there are a lot of people who are getting on and off trains at that station. I pass through that station virtually every time I'm in New York but can only recall two times at most that I've gone through the turnstile there. If you make 51st an express station, you might overwhelm an already crowded station by giving even more people the option to transfer at 51st for the E and M, right now anyone on the express who wants to get to Queens has to take the R from 59th or use the out of system transfer to get to the F on 63rd. Never mind the fact that having 4 express stops in a row dilutes the advantage of having an express train as you are proposing. This idea (like many of yours, frankly) ought to be a nonstarter. The potential benefits simply don't justify the costs.
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Re: 68th Street station
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Tue Feb 28 07:48:31 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Feb 28 07:12:38 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I only said to look at if it's feasible given all the issues 68th Street currently has. I don't even know if it's realistically possible to make 68th an express stop, but given how busy that station now is (as noted, one of the busiest local-only stations in the entire system), it may need to be explored if nothing else.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Tue Feb 28 07:49:27 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 26 18:23:06 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d A far cry from what we see today.
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Re: 68th Street station
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Tue Feb 28 09:52:06 2012, in response to Re: 68th Street station, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Feb 28 07:48:31 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And I'm saying it doesn't matter if it is feasible or not, there is no tangible benefit as far as I can tell. Lots of people have pointed out various problems with the idea of converting 68th and/or 51st into express stations including cost, feasible or not. You aren't addressing those issues.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave* on Tue Feb 28 12:16:23 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Feb 27 11:18:57 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I agree with leaving 68th as a 6-only stop, but I think 51st should be made into an express stop. It gives 4 and 5 riders a direct transfer to the 6th and 8th Avenue lines and E and M riders a direct transfer to the Lexington Ave express. IND-Lex transfers are among the most inconvenient in the system and the E/M-6 transfer is one of the busiest in the system. This would address both of those issues.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Concourse Express* on Tue Feb 28 12:26:00 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Feb 28 12:16:23 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I agree with leaving 68th as a 6-only stop, but I think 51st should be made into an express stop. It gives 4 and 5 riders a direct transfer to the 6th and 8th Avenue lines and E and M riders a direct transfer to the Lexington Ave express. IND-Lex transfers are among the most inconvenient in the system and the E/M-6 transfer is one of the busiest in the system. This would address both of those issues. I disagree. While Lex/51 is indeed one of the busiest transfers in the system, the Lex Express is at capacity and thus may not handle the additional volume (especially during peak hours). Regarding 6th Ave, the Broadway BMT stations are more or less proximate to the 6th Ave IND ones; as such, the 59 St transfer fulfills that purpose. You might have a better case with 8 Ave as, outside of Fulton St, such access requires three-seat rides (either via B'way BMT at 59 or via the (7) or (S) at 42). my blog
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave* on Tue Feb 28 12:26:14 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Feb 28 07:12:38 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The 6 platforms at 51st are already overwhelmed with folks transferring to/from the E and M. Those platforms would be far less crowded if the 4 and 5 stopped at 51st. And East Harlem/East Bronx riders would have a way to the West Side other than the 7/42nd St Shuttle.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave* on Tue Feb 28 12:34:25 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Concourse Express on Tue Feb 28 12:26:00 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yes, I mentioned the 8th Ave issue in another post. Getting from East Harlem or the East Bronx by subway is very time consuming because the only option is the Shuttle/7 at 42nd St. Broadway BMT is an option only if you want Times Sq, Herald Sq or (maybe) Rockefeller Center.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Outside the Box* on Tue Feb 28 12:47:27 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Feb 28 12:26:14 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Transferring more riders to the E @51st/53rd St during rush he is not a good idea. The current connection to N,R,Q for 7th Ave/Broadway corridor is functional.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Outside the Box* on Tue Feb 28 12:59:29 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Feb 28 12:34:25 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d There are the 2 stations on 7th Ave (49th st and 57th st). That is right down the middle of West Midtown. The 6th ave office towers are a block to the east, and 8th Ave is the same distance to the west.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Newkirk Plaza David* on Tue Feb 28 13:19:50 2012, in response to Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Gold_12TH on Sun Feb 26 12:41:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d What a bunch of whiners. They can complain about the proposed subway entrances on East 69th Street but live right by Lexington Ave, noisy as hell.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Tue Feb 28 13:31:43 2012, in response to Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Gold_12TH on Sun Feb 26 12:41:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'm really getting sick and tired of this shit.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by Concourse Express on Tue Feb 28 14:41:43 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Outside the Box on Tue Feb 28 12:47:27 2012. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Indeed. Speaking of connections, I forgot to mention another connection b/w the Lex express and the BMT...via Union Square (to the B'way subway or the (L) line to 6th/8th Ave IND). my blog
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by EastSideRider* on Tue Feb 28 15:58:18 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Feb 28 00:52:55 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Actually.... 2010 Annual Ridership 68 St-Hunter College (6): 10,165,641 Station Rank: 30 Lexington Av-53 St (E)/(M)-51 St (6): 18,025,148 Station Rank: 12 And keep in mind this is just people leaving (or entering?) the turnstile. The transfer at 51st is VERY busy, even outside rush hours (I used it for many years, so I can personally attest to it). To add the 4/5 at 51st, adding a transfer between local and express AND to the express to the IND, adds even MORE traffic to a station that has too much as is. Not to mention it slows down the already slow ride due to the new stop and the door holding that's common there.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave* on Tue Feb 28 19:42:32 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Outside the Box on Tue Feb 28 12:47:27 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Not if you're headed west of 7th Avenue.
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Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave* on Tue Feb 28 19:46:04 2012, in response to Re: Upper East Side Residents Protest Proposed Subway Entrances, posted by Outside the Box on Tue Feb 28 12:59:29 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d What about west of 8th Avenue? Pretty long walk from Broadway, especially south of 42nd St.
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