Those new BART cars

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Those new BART cars
Posted by WillD on Sat Sep 24 23:21:13 2011 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Actually, a lot better looking than the prior concepts. Hell, it's IMHO better looking, and probably a lot more useful than their original stuff. The car-end design is fairly interesting. Now where have I seen that before? Oh, right Public gets first look at detailed concepts for BART's Fleet of the Future By MELISSA JORDAN BART Senior Web Producer The public is getting its first look at detailed concepts for BART's Fleet of the Future, new train cars designed by BMW Group DesignworksUSA to replace the oldest fleet in the nation. BART has been gathering public input through a series of open house meetings, which ended in August, and through an online survey, which is now closed. You can still send feedback using this email feedback form. But keep in mind it's not a horse race to a single "top" choice, like a vote for president. The public can give feedback on what they like from any of three interior concepts -- and the end result will likely be a combination of the best of all three. There's also a snazzy new exterior concept. All of the interior concepts keep the same number of seats as current BART trains, a result of BART listening to the feedback that came in through a public input process. The concepts differ more in their sense of style, and some of their specific features. Right now the interior concepts are labeled simply A, B and C –- and remember, features of any one could be switched or blended into any other. You can download PDFs that describe all the concepts in detail at the Fleet of the Future website. THREE INTERIOR CONCEPTS Let's start with Concept "A," which the designers have dubbed "Commuter Comfort." It has handholds and poles mounted on seat backs, floor-to-ceiling poles near the doors with tree-like branches for multiple people to grasp, bike racks on some cars, headrests on window seats, and digital informational displays at the top of some window areas. Then there's Concept "B," which the designers are calling "Work and Play." It has some informal, open-style lounge areas on each car, in addition to traditional commuter seats. There are no headrests, and the digital information is larger and located above some seat backs. Like Concept A, it has tree-like floor to ceiling poles near the doors, but this Concept is accented with a lighting element above the tree. The number of seats is the same as Concept "A." Now take a look at Concept "C", which was inspired by the idea of "Functional Art." There's a more artistic, wavy-top seat; an "S"-shaped elegant design for the floor-to-ceiling poles; and "portals" at the end of some cars so kids (of all ages!) can enjoy seeing the track and tunnel walls whiz by the front of the train as it speeds down the track. No headrests on this concept, but the seat count is again the same as Concept "A." Any of the pole designs or digital info designs could be used in any of the concepts. A survey will ask about the interior seating configurations and the other features that riders like or dislike from all three concepts. One thing applicable to all three concepts: There are wider aisles for easier in-and-out access, achieved from small trims in the seat width and leg room. BART listened to customer feedback from a number of seat labs, discarding the options that would have squeezed seat width and leg room too much; what was chosen is what a large majority of customers said they would find acceptable, and is still roomy, compared to most transit systems. THREE COLOR PALETTES Also applicable to all of the three concepts would be any of three color palettes. One palette is "natural" (think browns, greens, neutral); another is "bay and sky" (think blue, gray and sandy); the third is "diversity" (think vibrant rainbow colors that pop). Finally, there's an exterior concept that truly goes where no BART train has gone before. It is sleek and modern in general look and has some striking new features. There are three doors rather than two -- to get people in and out faster. There are side panels where art from the community could be featured. And in one of the biggest changes, there's a color-coded digital display system on the front of the train. It would show not only the name of the end point destination (for example Pittsburg/Bay Point), but also have a big band of yellow, since that's the "yellow line." There are some other nifty new features, like energy-efficient LED lighting, state-of-the-art propulsion and regenerative braking and even an induction loop system that would transmit BART information to hearing aids and cochlear implants. A presentation about the new concepts is planned for the Thursday, August 11, meeting of the BART Board of Directors. To view the agenda, go to the "Meetings and Agenda" section of www.bart.gov/board and select the agenda for August 11. These concepts are still a work in progress, and will be refined after public input. After the concepts are finalized, the carbuilder BART selects will conduct formal design, engineering, and prototyping to refine the concepts even further, and the public will get another look at the results. SEE THEM AT A MEETING OR IN STATIONS If you want an up-close-and-in-person look at the current concepts, with detailed information about all the features, you can attend an open house and give feedback; there are nine scheduled for the month of August. Find out the complete schedule for community open house meetings, as well as for displays of the concepts inside of BART stations. You can also take an online survey to share your preferences, after reviewing all the concepts. Information on the meetings, the station exhibits and the survey is posted at www.bart.gov/cars. It’s critical that BART get new trains, because most of the fleet is made up of its original cars, and they will have been in service 40 years come September 2011. Many materials and components are near the end of their useful lives. Many are technologically obsolete. With the average car logging 110,000 miles a year, we need to move forward with replacement to avoid future breakdowns and service delays to the public. In addition – it’s predicted BART will have 500,000 riders a day by 2035, according to the Metropolitan Transportation Commission. That’s a huge jump from the typical 340,000 a day now, and more capacity than current trains can handle comfortably. If you recall the day of the San Francisco Giants World Series Victory Parade on November 3, 2010, that was BART’s highest-ridership day ever at 522,198. Imagine crowds as large as that on a daily basis, and you’ll see the need for new trains. BART invites you to join in this journey and make your voice heard!
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sat Sep 24 23:29:15 2011, in response to Those new BART cars, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 24 23:21:13 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d most important the three doors.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jersey Mike* on Sat Sep 24 23:42:56 2011, in response to Those new BART cars, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 24 23:21:13 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Does any of them have a railfan view? BART is just about the only system where anything would be better than their current arrangement.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sat Sep 24 23:58:08 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Sep 24 23:42:56 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d no, and not likely ever given OPTO/ATC. The "attendant needs to be able to be looking out the window to see that no one is in the doors.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jersey Mike* on Sun Sep 25 00:57:39 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Sep 24 23:58:08 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The current BART cars have a bulkhead wall across the opposite side of the cab so there is no view whatsoever.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sun Sep 25 02:05:50 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Sep 25 00:57:39 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d only true of the A cars. The C 2 s have window from the cab into the car on the left. When those cars are mid-train one can stand in the left half cab.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by aem7ac* on Sun Sep 25 03:22:30 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Sep 24 23:42:56 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Does any of them have a railfan view? BART is just about the only system where anything would be better than their current arrangement. LIRR? No railfan view, ever?
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jersey Mike* on Sun Sep 25 03:22:55 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by aem7ac on Sun Sep 25 03:22:30 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART is transit.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by aem7ac* on Sun Sep 25 03:46:59 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Sep 25 03:22:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART is transit. Did you know that they are part of a suburban rail benchmarking group ISBeRG, and not a member of CoMET which is the rail transit benchmarking group?
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Osmosis Jones* on Sun Sep 25 03:49:55 2011, in response to Those new BART cars, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 24 23:21:13 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART really seems to be a model transit agency, thanks for sharing.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Sun Sep 25 04:10:21 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Sep 25 03:49:55 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART really seems to be a model transit agency, thanks for sharing With 25kV electrification and normal gauge to permit thru-running with mainline trackage, it probably would rank a bit higher from my perspective. Without fake ridership counts to build really questionable extensions, and with regional fare integration, then I'd feel less icky when defending BART. Regardless, BART in effect is a modern German S-Bahn, but without the sharing of mainline tracks or the transit oriented development and fare integration.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Osmosis Jones* on Sun Sep 25 06:17:34 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Sep 25 04:10:21 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Define questionable. The extension to San Jose is much more progressive than anything we've seen in New York in many years. I'd like to see BART become compatible with Caltrain sometime soon though. Imagine being able to travel on a loop from San Fran to Oakland, down to San Jose, then back up to Millbrae and San Fran, and no, that's not the only reason why I think that should happen.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by aem7ac* on Sun Sep 25 06:36:29 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Sep 25 06:17:34 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Have any of you actually lived in Germany? Why do you think the German rail system is good? Do you understand their reality? Do you know what it feels like to live in a 300 sq ft studio apartment in a 20-storey tower made out of grey concrete (which frankly feels more like a bunker)?
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Osmosis Jones* on Sun Sep 25 07:02:20 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by aem7ac on Sun Sep 25 06:36:29 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Uh...
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Sep 25 10:19:27 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Sep 24 23:42:56 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d 1) That rubber thing is UGLY. And what is it for anyway, there is no door there whan the car is mid-train, so it is not to protect passengers passing from car to car. 2) It is a nice looking train, but what is with the bus seats? Cant they go for railroad seating? roar
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Sep 25 10:21:38 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Sep 25 06:17:34 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And how would anybody do that? You would have to install dual gauge track! roar
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by WillD* on Sun Sep 25 11:08:07 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 25 10:19:27 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The rubber thing is a diaphragm, just like you'd find on any other passenger car. Except that unlike the small, relatively non-accessable end doors on our extant stock, this provides a link between railcars which may be capable of allowing wheelchair passengers to navigate between cars without assistance. And if the Danish Flexliners or Belgian AM96s are any indication there will be a door, as the entire cab will fold aside to allow passengers to walk between cars.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by R36 #9346* on Sun Sep 25 11:14:50 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 25 10:19:27 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I agree that the "rubber thing" is ugly, but apparently, the whole end surrounded by it is a door. Quoting from the Wikipedia article IC3: The most significant feature of the IC3 (and its cousins) are the front- and cab-design. When viewed from the outside, the viewer will notice the large rubber diaphragm surrounding a flat cab. The cab is separate department in the train, but the table with the controls are mounted on a huge door, to which the seat is also mounted. When two or more units are coupled together in a single train, the entire front door folds away to give a wide passage, and the rubber diaphragms at the ends form a flush aerodynamic seal. There are photos of this on the Wikipedia page.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Sep 25 11:51:42 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 25 11:08:07 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Looks even stupider in that picture! roaring
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sun Sep 25 13:09:52 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by aem7ac on Sun Sep 25 03:46:59 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART likes to PRETEND they are commuter rail. Ridership ## and patterns make clear they are urban transit with underperforming tentacles into sprawlburbia.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sun Sep 25 14:07:05 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Sep 25 04:10:21 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART is like PATH or the Steinway Tubes--completely incompatible dimensions. Sadly, BART should have known better, but... So, from my perspective the Sam Jose extension is a complete mistake. For the same or less $$ the Capitol Corridor could be electrified double track--far more useful as a network.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Train2104* on Sun Sep 25 14:27:22 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Sep 25 14:07:05 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d WMATA and BART are similar: transit extensions into crazily suburban areas. Shady Grove and Bay Point anyone?
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by aem7ac* on Sun Sep 25 14:37:16 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Train2104 on Sun Sep 25 14:27:22 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d crazily suburban areas They said that about the Dual Contracts Flushing Extension in 1913.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Sun Sep 25 14:55:05 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by aem7ac on Sun Sep 25 06:36:29 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Actually, my new BFF* is from Germany and her husband grew up in the countryside. Shockingly, not everywhere in Germany is a giant plattenbau with crampt DDR-esque apartments, but there are actual single family homes and normal sized apartments. Why do you think the German rail system is good? It's well managed and has significant government and public support? :-) Coincidentally, the high taxes on petroleum and rigorous driver licensing programme keeps questionable people off the road, while proper planning and low crime prevents middle class flight and sprawl. FWIW, given their population size, they'd need some degree of density otherwise, they would lose valuable agricultural land and be forced to import food. *Which you'd know about if I was invited over more often. :-)
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Sun Sep 25 14:59:04 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Sep 25 06:17:34 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The extension to San Jose is much more progressive than anything we've seen in New York in many years. Given BART's current operating characteristics, it's far more prudent to develop the existing Capitol Corridor Amtrak trains and turn that into a usable service with more frequencies and higher speeds than to replicate a rather expensive network that seems to be far more concerned about dominating the entire Bay Area's transit needs. I'd like to see BART become compatible with Caltrain sometime soon though. That only would have happened back during the planning phases during the late 1950s and 1960s had they gone with 25kV @ 60hz electrification and normal gauge infrastructure.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sun Sep 25 15:03:13 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by aem7ac on Sun Sep 25 14:37:16 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The difference is that there are fewer McMansions in Flushing than in BART served territory. Much of first generation rail transit was built in anticipation of real estate development, but few people drive to stations on the 7,F,E whereas BART has large parking lots/garages at most stations because with rare exceptions housing is SFD or low rise condos.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by randyo* on Sun Sep 25 15:48:46 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Sep 25 02:05:50 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The problem I noticed with the C cars as opposed to the A cars is that while the "operator's window on the A car is wide enough to provide a RFW through the cab door, the view through the cab door of a C car is of a blank door since the end doors on the C cars have no windows. It looks like the new cars will have a window in the end door so that there will finally be a RFW and unlike the MTA's NTTs, the BART cab door glass is merely lightly tinted affording a good railfan view.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Sun Sep 25 16:26:02 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 25 15:48:46 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d and provided w/ a pull down shade.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by blue8irt* on Sun Sep 25 19:40:32 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Sep 25 13:09:52 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Seriously wicked! So non-American looking. I mean, no plain brown wrapper.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by FYBklyn1959* on Sun Sep 25 20:23:49 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Sep 25 00:57:39 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d In the A cars, you could kinda get a RFV by sitting in the seat right behind the bulkhead. Problem is, that seat faces away from the cab door, so you had to turn around in your seat to see. Mostly, you saw the T/O, the console, and part of the view out of his window. Wasn't much, but that was the best you got. I have a pic, somewhere.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Sand Box John* on Sun Sep 25 23:40:53 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Train2104 on Sun Sep 25 14:27:22 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d WMATA and BART are similar: transit extensions into crazily suburban areas. Shady Grove and Bay Point anyone? The only similarities between bart and WMATA is at the fact that both are run on dedicated grade separated right of ways and both use a purpose designed signaling and automatic train control system. Bay Point is a hell of a lot further from downtown Oakland then Shady Grove is from downtown Washington. Shady Grove was added to the Adopted Regional System shortly after the ground was broken on the initial segment. One of the reasons why the station was added is there were no large tracts of land near the Rockville station to build an end of line yard and shop on without using eminent domain to take already developed residential property. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Mon Sep 26 00:24:41 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Sep 25 23:40:53 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART and WMATA are also similar in charging by distance, failing to run overnight, and the choice of cushy seats/carpeting all hallmarks of shouting "we aren't a subway like NY". BART has wised up--carpet is being phased out. As to distances, indeed WMATA has nearly the same route mileage as BART but far better laid out as reflected in double average daily ridership.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Osmosis Jones* on Mon Sep 26 01:59:29 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 25 10:21:38 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Isn't Caltrain due up for a huge overhaul to prepare for electrification, what better time than now?
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Osmosis Jones* on Mon Sep 26 02:03:21 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Sep 25 14:59:04 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Given BART's current operating characteristics, it's far more prudent to develop the existing Capitol Corridor Amtrak trains and turn that into a usable service with more frequencies and higher speeds than to replicate a rather expensive network that seems to be far more concerned about dominating the entire Bay Area's transit needs. The BART route could be much faster, and also gives Southeastern Bay residents a direct ride to San Francisco. The Capitol Corridor south of Emeryville will probably be discontinued after HSR to San Francisco and BART to San Jose is built anyways.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by WillD* on Mon Sep 26 03:00:50 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 25 11:51:42 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Coming from you that's an absolute stamp of approval for the design concept.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Mon Sep 26 06:31:28 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 25 10:19:27 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Broadway Lion is wrong again.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Mon Sep 26 06:31:40 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by WillD on Mon Sep 26 03:00:50 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Exactly.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Sand Box John* on Mon Sep 26 08:42:08 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 26 00:24:41 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BART and WMATA are also similar in charging by distance, failing to run overnight, and the choice of cushy seats/carpeting all hallmarks of shouting "we aren't a subway like NY". BART has wised up--carpet is being phased out. Not operating 24 service is irrelevant as the vast majority of the rail transit properties in north America don't. The image these two agencies used to promote themselves has no relevance to the passenger demographics served. Sure both use distance based fares, they both do because the technology to collect them automatically became available around the time these systems were built. What surprises me is that other agencies have not gone to distance based fare structures. As to distances, indeed WMATA has nearly the same route mileage as BART but far better laid out as reflected in double average daily ridership. Bart has one trunk route with multiple branches radiating from it, WMATA has four, three which also have branches radiating from them. WMATA serves the urban core along three different routes, bart serves their urban cores along a single route. The difference between boardings generated has more to do with lack of coverage in their urban cores, the geography of the region and the demographics of passenger served. Bart is a commuter railroad with a small amount of urban rapid transit on the side. WMATA is an urban rapid transit system with truncated commuter rail reach. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Mon Sep 26 10:09:39 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 26 06:31:40 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d One is a turtle, the other is a noodle. Together ewe will make a good soup.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Mon Sep 26 10:12:23 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 26 06:31:28 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How can an opinion be wrong? Go back to your soup, turtle!
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by The Flxible Neofan* on Mon Sep 26 11:15:18 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 25 11:08:07 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Intriguing - what happens with the operator's controls?
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Mon Sep 26 12:21:25 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Sep 26 08:42:08 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You write "Bart is a commuter railroad with a small amount of urban rapid transit on the side. WMATA is an urban rapid transit system with truncated commuter rail reach." BART ridership does not support that. Although trains run many miles into sprawl land 8 of the 10 least used stations are out there. There is considerable "local transit" ridership both within SF and in the urban East Bay between Richmond--San Leandro. BART says 55% of ridership is outside of rush.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Mon Sep 26 12:26:57 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Sep 26 02:03:21 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d umh, no Capitol Corridor ridership keeps growing. As to speed, BART tops @ 80, CC @ 79, whenever PTC is implemented CC could speed up if UP cooperates.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Sand Box John* on Mon Sep 26 14:06:11 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 26 12:21:25 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And I would hazard a guess most of that 55 percent is in the core areas you mentioned. Sound to me like if you were to reduce the bart mileage to a transit system with a truncated commuter rail reach you would end up with a system that would have a boardings to route mile ratio similar to that of WMATA. I would also hazard a guess the people that live in the areas of the lowest boarding stations commute by other modes to destinations that are not served by bart. WMATA has similar commuting patterns. There is a joke in the Washington area that says, people that live in the suburbs of Maryland commute to areas that are 180 degrees around the Capitol Beltway. There is some truth to the joke, I know a few that did and do and did so at various times myself. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Mon Sep 26 14:27:36 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Sep 26 14:06:11 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d John, it so happens that I live in Oakland but was born/raised around DC, so I have experience of both systems as well as a brother-in-law lived near Frederick and commuted to Tysons Corners some years ago. Indeed if BART gutted the lines which cross the hills they would lose much mileage, some patronage. When I interviewed BART's PR guy around start up, he said BART was LIRR not NYC Subway. Well that was their suburban (now yuppie) dream. base day service east of the hills is 15 minutes, between Richmond Mac 7.5, Mac to Bayfair 5, S of Bayfair 7.5, and in SF 3-4. Even management can see where the riders are.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by randyo* on Mon Sep 26 16:12:26 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Sep 25 16:26:02 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The few times I rode BART, I never saw the shade down.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Osmosis Jones* on Mon Sep 26 16:36:07 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 26 12:26:57 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yes. The Capitol Corridor would be redundant after the San Jose-San Francisco portion of HSR is built.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Mon Sep 26 20:48:27 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 26 14:27:36 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d base day service east of the hills is 15 minutes Congrats. I'd kill for that level of service on the LIRR, hence why I've made the argument that BART is America's (half-assed) equivalent of the Frankfurt S-Bahn.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by Sand Box John* on Mon Sep 26 23:30:58 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Sep 26 14:27:36 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d When I interviewed BART's PR guy around start up, he said BART was LIRR not NYC Subway. That's pretty similar to what the late Cody Phanstiehl, front man for WMATA said during the 1960s and 70s when comparing metrorail and bart. Base day service east of the hills is 15 minutes, between Richmond Mac 7.5, Mac to Bayfair 5, S of Bayfair 7.5, and in SF 3-4. Metrorail's advertised base day service is 6 minutes on the trunks 12 on the branches, cut those number in half during peak with the exception of the Red line, 5 minutes Shady Grove - Glenmont, 2.5 Grosvenor - Silver Spring. Even management can see where the riders are. WMATA does as well. One of the side benefits of using a distance based automatic fare collection. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.
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Re: Those new BART cars
Posted by WMATAGMOAGH* on Tue Sep 27 04:17:50 2011, in response to Re: Those new BART cars, posted by Sand Box John on Mon Sep 26 23:30:58 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Red Line headways are back to 6 minutes on the ends of the line and 3 minutes in the core at rush hour to improve reliability. They are running the same number of cars but fewer trains.
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