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| (1034226) | |
"J" and "Z" relay |
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Posted by caine515 on Sat Feb 5 21:17:39 2011 I've always been curious on the relay tracks for the "J" and "Z" line at Broad Street and at Chambers Street.Was wondering how far do they go and were they supposed to connect to anything at one time? I'm guessing maybe Chambers Street to the Brooklyn Bridge because my dad once told me about how trains ran over there..unless he was mistaken. Any help is appreciated. |
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| (1034227) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 5 21:28:35 2011, in response to "J" and "Z" relay, posted by caine515 on Sat Feb 5 21:17:39 2011. You have through tracks going through Broad St to the Montague St tunnel. If trains turned in the station, they would back up through trains trying to reach Brooklyn.The trains over the Brooklyn Bridge terminated at the Park Row elevated terminal. |
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| (1034233) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 5 21:44:39 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 5 21:28:35 2011. The trains over the Brooklyn Bridge did indeed terminate at Park Row, and never did enter Chambers Street.That said, Chambers Street *WAS DESIGNED* to connect to Brooklyn Bridge. Issues with the bridge and the diminished need for said connection secondary to the invention of the IND terminated that plan. This *is* the reason why the platforms take such a convoluted shape. 
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1034249) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Sat Feb 5 23:17:16 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 5 21:28:35 2011. If trains turned in the station, they would back up through trains trying to reach Brooklyn.Though with M trains going up Sixth Avenue, that point is a bit moot, isn't it? |
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| (1034252) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Feb 5 23:35:12 2011, in response to "J" and "Z" relay, posted by caine515 on Sat Feb 5 21:17:39 2011. Caine: In order to answer your question I consulted a article entitled "Nassau Street Subway History" by the late Mr David Rogff which appeared in the April 1969 Issue of the New York Division Bulletin.Regarding the tail track south of Chambers Street (R 3/4). This track extends about 620 feet from the switch point to the bumper. The bumper is about five feet north of the north wall of the IRT subway (Clark St Line) wall at Beekman Street. The tail track is also about five feet above the level of the IRT tracks at the bumper. The two tails track south of Broad Street Station (R3 and R4) actually begin south of Beaver Street and extend to a point halfway between Water and Front Street. Some distance south of the point where the line spreads to four tracks there is a diamond crossover. The distance from the diamond crossover to the blocks is 575 feet. Mr Rogoff further states that the original purpose of the two stub tracks is in doubt. The 1921 Annual Report of the Public Service Commission says "in connection with the 4 track two story subway under Nassau Street (never built as such) the lower level tracks (the outer ones) were to be used for the Fulton Street Connection from Brooklyn while the upper level (stub tracks) are to be used for the Nassau Street Subway. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034301) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 09:54:11 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Feb 5 23:35:12 2011. Also.the chambers st.tail track was 2 tracks.when off ramps for the bklyn.bridge were built one off the tracks was taken out to accomadate construction of said ramp. |
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| (1034332) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 6 13:01:43 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Feb 5 23:35:12 2011. The distance from the diamond crossover to the blocks is 575 feet.Interesting. 10 car trains could not relay here. |
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| (1034436) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 6 21:06:39 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by R36 #9346 on Sat Feb 5 23:17:16 2011. From a previous message: "Though with M trains going up Sixth Avenue, that point is a bit moot, isn't it?"Regardless of the M-trains current new routing, the capabilities and features of the Broad Street station/terminal remain capable, and useful. Just because the E and F trains no longer terminate and relay 24/7/365 at the 179th Street station, does not that mean that there was a reduction of the capabilities of the station/terminal. Why would there be? A station/terminal can remain very capable, even if the features may not be used as frequently as before. For example, Church Avenue on the F and G lines - is a revived terminal. Just because until recently the G-train started to run from there - does not mean that over the previous decades when the G-train did not, that the terminal was not capable, or lost its capability. If transit fans believed that terminal had lost it capabilities they would not have dreamed for decades of extending the G-train there. The question was about the capabilities of the Broad Street station/terminal. Mike |
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| (1034440) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sun Feb 6 21:28:00 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 6 21:06:39 2011. Excellent post. |
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| (1034465) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 00:27:44 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 6 21:06:39 2011. Who said anything about the capability of Broad St as a terminal?? The discussion is about Chambers St, and since the J is the only route running on the line, there's no need to "worry" about "backing up the line", as if the J is running to broad, there's no trains terminating at Chambers, and if the J is terminating at Chambers, it's the weekend, and no trains are running south of Chambers. |
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| (1034466) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Feb 7 01:16:50 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 00:27:44 2011. From a previous message: "Who said anything about the capability of Broad St as a terminal?"Quoted from the message that started this stream: "J" and "Z" relay Posted by caine515 on Sat Feb 5 21:17:39 2011 I've always been curious on the relay tracks for the "J" and "Z" line at Broad Street and at Chambers Street. --------- Mike |
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| (1034483) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:24:43 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Feb 6 09:54:11 2011. That's not the case at all. Until the Nassau St portion of the loop was built all 4 tracks terminated at what is now called the south end of Chambers St which was actually the railroad NORTH end of the station since trains coming from Bkln on both the Eastern and Southern Divisions terminated there. As originally built, J4 track rose at the same gradient as J2 to align with the proposed ramp to the Bkln Br. The present J1 tracks dipped at the same gradient as J3 track. This was because as originally planned, J2 and J4 tracks were to ascend to the Bkln Br and J1 and J3 tracks were to dip under the other 2 tracks and curve west the align with Nassau St. At that time such an alignment was possible since the IRT line under Pk Pl had not yet been built. Once the IRT line across Park Pl to Fulton St was built, the original alignment was no longer possible. Due to that and also abandonment of plans to connect to the Bkln Br at that point, plane were altered and when the line was built in conjunction with the iND subway in that area, The gradient for J4 was changed and aligned to match the gradient of J3 and the tail track R-3/4 track was built. At the same time the J1 track gradient was raised to rise above the new tail track and swing west to align with Nassau St. The track alignment under Nassau St remained unchanged since the narrowness of the street necessitated such a configuration. |
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| (1034484) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:28:12 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 6 13:01:43 2011. At the time it was built, the maximum length train that could operate there was 8 X 67 ft steels and the new stations at Fulton and Broad Sts though built with IND style tiles were also built to only accommodate the standard BMT length trains of the period. By the way, since it is a single track, there is no diamond Xover, just a single switch to merge J3 and J4 into R-3/4. |
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| (1034499) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Feb 7 08:04:06 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Michael549 on Mon Feb 7 01:16:50 2011. Somebody needs to learn how to read a thread I see eh Micheal? |
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| (1034503) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 08:16:42 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:28:12 2011. By the way, since it is a single track, there is no diamond Xover, just a single switch to merge J3 and J4 into R-3/4.Randy: Chris was referring to the tail tracks south of Broad Street where there are two of them and they do have a diamond crossover. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034506) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 08:54:21 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Feb 5 23:35:12 2011. I have a question about the area south of Broad:Where is the junction between the two lines that merge into the Montague tunnel located? The track map shows it under the water, and there does not seem to be much space on land for it. On the other hand, building a junction underwater seems to be way more effort than it would be worth, and I can't even think of any other underwater switches in the system, much less a grade separated junction. |
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| (1034547) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Feb 7 10:07:49 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 08:54:21 2011. I believe the junction that exists between the R-train tracks south of the Whitehall Street station, and what used to be the M-train (and in previous years the brown rush hour R-train) south of the Broad Street station exists near the piers just off of Manhattan at that point.While the statement "near or under the piers" implies "under-water" - which is technically true, there is a bit of something else going on. Many of the subway underwater tunnels rise as they approach the shore start, (or dip depending upon direction of travel). I admit that I'm not as experienced with track numbers, or the decals that display distance of track, but I've rode the R-train, and the M-train plenty of times over the years. I've watched from the front and sides of both trains on trips to and from each of the stations plenty of times. As the Brooklyn-bound R-train leaves the Whitehall Street station, it receives a switch from its middle track, off to the right is an un-completed tunnel junction, and within a minute later is the track connection previously used by the M-train. After that minute, there is the rest of the train trip to Brooklyn. Meaning that the junction occurs about 1 minute or so after the front of the train leaves the Whitehall Street platforms. On the Manhattan-bound side of the arriving R-train, there is the trip from Court Street, the trip underwater, the approach near Manhattan. Then the switch off for the M-train, then the switch for the middle track, and then into the Whitehall Street station. Again once the switch off to the M-train occurs, there is about a minute or less before the switch to the middle track and one is in the station. So it is not "truly underwater" as in the middle of New York Bay - but the junction exists near the shoreline of Manhattan. Rather it seems that the junction is built on the rise of the tunnels as they meet the shore, an actually easier place to build it. Mike |
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| (1034558) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 7 10:36:49 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Feb 5 23:35:12 2011. Very interesting! Now we have another piece of the Fulton Streer el's Ashland Place connection story! |
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| (1034563) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Feb 7 11:37:37 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 08:16:42 2011. Yes. I never considered these tracks needing to be extended in any extension of the eastern division to 600' trains. |
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| (1034632) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Feb 7 14:33:15 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by LRG5784 on Sun Feb 6 21:28:00 2011. Very! It's the same thing when some say that 179th street can't handle E and F trains, or that 53rd street can't handle 2 express trains. |
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| (1034672) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by DaveBarraza on Mon Feb 7 17:39:35 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:24:43 2011. Kinda explains the unusual xlkg layout at the (RR) south end.Any diagrams online of pre-1967 layouts at chambers, when the Federal interlocker was in service? |
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| (1034674) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by DaveBarraza on Mon Feb 7 17:41:10 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:28:12 2011. Interestingly, you CAN relay a 600' train north of Broad at the trailing-point crossover. -In case of "oopsies" I would imagine. |
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| (1034676) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by DaveBarraza on Mon Feb 7 17:43:29 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 08:54:21 2011. It's a tough place to get to when there's switch trouble! |
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Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 18:27:27 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Michael549 on Mon Feb 7 01:16:50 2011. From a previous message: "Though with M trains going up Sixth Avenue, that point is a bit moot, isn't it?"Regardless of the M-trains current new routing, the capabilities and features of the Broad Street station/terminal remain capable, and useful. He didn't that the Broad St terminals weren't capable, he said the whole thing is moot at this time, as there will not be a time when trains are both terminating at Chambers St, and also trains terminating at Broad at the same time, as the J is now the only route on the line, and it will always either terminate at Chambers OR at Broad, there will not be trains terminating at both terminals at the same time, so long as the J remains alone there. |
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| (1034693) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 18:27:41 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Railman718 on Mon Feb 7 08:04:06 2011. Wrong, reread what was typed. |
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Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Feb 7 18:59:15 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Michael549 on Mon Feb 7 10:07:49 2011. You are right. The switch (actually two of them, on different levels) is located under water, a few feet off shore. It must have been quite a project building it. |
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| (1034704) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:24:42 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by DaveBarraza on Mon Feb 7 17:39:35 2011. I was only in the old Chambers tower once in 1967 pre Chrystie so I don't remember much about it but I don't believe the track arrangement was changed at all when it went on Essex's board. |
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| (1034705) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:28:31 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 08:16:42 2011. You're right. I missed that one. It does sound however that the tail track at Chambers can hold a full 600 ft train. That being said, unless there is something at the S/E of the Broad St tail tracks that prevent it, there would seem to be no reason why they couldn't be extended to accommodate a 600 ft train if the rest of the BMT Eastern were to have its platforms lengthened. |
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| (1034711) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:38:53 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 08:54:21 2011. When I was in the command center, a bunch of the console T/Ds were taken on a tour of all the underwater tunnels and shown where all the cross passages and emergency exits were. The one from the Montague tunnel actually comes up on a small "island," probably man made, between 50 and 100 ft off the Manhattan shore line next to the Governor's Island ferry slips. The exit actually opens inside a small building resembling a lighthouse and there is a narrow causeway for passengers to walk from the island to the Manhattan shore. When I first climbed out into the "lighthouse" I looked around and initially saw nothing but water around. What is interesting is that at track level, the stairway to this exit is actually in the portion of the tunnel leading to the Nassau St Line which means that the provision for the Nassau St Line was included in the original dual contract construction of the Montague tunnel. |
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| (1034722) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:56:39 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by DaveBarraza on Mon Feb 7 17:39:35 2011. Besides what I said in my other post, the original configuration of the Essex St model board called for J4 track to be relaid through Canal St as it was and for the wall at Chambers St end of Canal to come down and all 4 tracks through routed to Chambers St. The part of that interlocking on the Essex board was covered by electrical tape similar to the tape that was used to cover 76 St station on Euclid's board. |
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| (1034736) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 20:31:51 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 08:54:21 2011. Where is the junction between the two lines that merge into the Montague tunnel located?The track map shows it under the water, and there does not seem to be much space on land for it. It is underwater, approximately 3,300 feet east of the bulkhead line. This according to a construction history of the Montague Street Tunnel by the late Dave Rogoff. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034743) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 20:52:27 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:38:53 2011. What is interesting is that at track level, the stairway to this exit is actually in the portion of the tunnel leading to the Nassau St Line which means that the provision for the Nassau St Line was included in the original dual contract construction of the Montague tunnel.The island that you refer to might be the last remaining part of "Coenties Reef" which was removed by the War Department in 1917. The Montague Street Tunnel was built with provisions for two other lines. One was called the Atlantic Avenue Connection or Construction Route #32 Battery Park - Atlantic Avenue Route. This route was of course never built but was provided for in the form of bellmouths in the west wall at the south end of the Whitehall Street Station. The second provision was for Construction Route #45 the Broad Street and Whitehall Street Route which of course did open in 1931 and is known today as the Nassau Street Line. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034745) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Feb 7 20:53:44 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:38:53 2011. Fascinating information! |
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| (1034748) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 21:00:24 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by VictorM on Mon Feb 7 18:59:15 2011. It must have been quite a project building it.In his history of the building of the Montague Street Tunnel subway historian Dave Rogoff relates an interesting tale. Its seems the on February 19, 1916 a Mr Marshall Mabey was working in the tunnel which was then under construction. The compressed air in the tunnel built up to such a pressure that there was a blowout and he was pushed upward through about ten feet of sand , through the water and then about forty feet into the air. Although he had a broken leg he was able to swim to shore. Unfortunately two co-workers were not so lucky and were later found dead in the tunnel. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034751) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 21:06:44 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 7 10:36:49 2011. Very interesting! Now we have another piece of the Fulton Streer el's Ashland Place connection story!One is left to wonder what the BRT/BMT would have done if the Ashland Place Connection had been built. Dekalb Avenue did not have the capacity to handle the five existing lines in southern Brooklyn. Recall that the Culver Line train were not routed into Dekalb Avenue until 1931 and even then a portion of the service remained on the Fifth Avenue El. If they had started to route the Fulton Street trains into Dekalb they would have had to cut service on one of the other lines or add some more tracks. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034753) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Feb 7 21:19:11 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Feb 7 11:37:37 2011. They could only relay at Chambers and Fulton/Broad would be served by through trains to Brooklyn... J to 9th ave? |
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Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 21:27:25 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 20:31:51 2011. Thanks for the info, I've been curious about that for a while.That must have taken quite the effort to build. Do you know if they put up some sort of cofferdam or used prefabricated sections? It seems like the shield methods used for most underwater tunneling of the time would not work for a junction. |
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| (1034755) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 21:31:02 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Feb 7 21:19:11 2011. They could only relay at Chambers and Fulton/Broad would be served by through trains to Brooklyn... J to 9th ave?If Chambers Street had been built and operated as planned then trains coming over the Williamsburg Bridge would have used the two westernmost tracks at Chambers Street and then would have continued on to Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Bridge. Trains coming over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge would have used the two easternmost tracks and then return to Brooklyn via the Montague Street Tunnel. There was also a plan for a loop north of the Dekalb Avenue Station to return trains back to Brooklyn. This might have come into play if the Ashland Place Connection was ever built as there was no way for all the routes to run through to Manhattan. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034756) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 21:34:22 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 21:27:25 2011. Do you know if they put up some sort of cofferdam or used prefabricated sections?According to Mr Rogoff's History the tunnels were shield driven and cast iron lined. The top of the tunnels had to be 45 feet below Mean High Water by order of the War Department. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1034761) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Feb 7 21:50:02 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 18:27:27 2011. Let's go back to the original message that started this stream:---------- Quote from the first message: ""J" and "Z" relay Posted by caine515 on Sat Feb 5 21:17:39 2011 I've always been curious on the relay tracks for the "J" and "Z" line at Broad Street and at Chambers Street." My response - Caine515 says that he is curious about the relay tracks for the J and Z at Broad Street, and at Chambers Street. No mention of the M-train in that sentence - so why bring up the M-train? The relay tracks at both stations were not affected by the re-routing of the M-train, no tracks were un-installed or added. So why even talk about the M-train and its new routing? NONE. ---------- Now let's look at the second question as quoted from the original message: "Was wondering how far do they go and were they supposed to connect to anything at one time?" My response - Caine515 is wondering about the length of those very same relay tracks. Other folks answered that question, and talked about the history of the Chambers Street station, the original plans for the station, the later changes that occurred to the station's tracks, and why they occurred. No mention of the M-train in that question - so why bring up the M-train? NO REASON ------------ Now let's look at the last statement: "I'm guessing maybe Chambers Street to the Brooklyn Bridge because my dad once told me about how trains ran over there..unless he was mistaken." My response - Caine515 is wondering about the history of the planned connection between the Chambers Street station and the Brooklyn Bridge. So why bring up the M-train? NO REASON ------------- My thoughts: a) Regardless of whether the Broad Street and the Chambers Street station are currently used at the same time as terminals - is completely not relevant to the question about the history of those stations. It is the MTA that determines what trains terminate where and when - it always has been. In fact the MTA has been known to have "short turns - trains that do not go the "end terminal" even during the heavy traffic periods. b) Both the Broad Street and the Chambers Street stations have been used as terminate and relay stations - where trains dis-embark riders, the train is moved to a relay track, and then returned to the station on another platform to pick up passengers. This occurred regardless of the labels of the trains, or the train's eventual terminal. c) While both of the Broad Street and Chambers Street stations could reverse a train at the downtown platforms for the return direction (that is for trains that came off the Williamsburg Bridge Manhattan bound). That was not the practice at either of the stations, regardless of the labels on those trains. This kind of operation reduces the chance of backing up trains coming from Brooklyn (either direction), regardless of the labels on the trains. d) While the re-routing of the M-train has probably reduced the amount of train traffic on the Nassau Street section in particular - that would not change the train pathway operations at either station. Regardless of the labels on the trains, the relay tracks and other features would be used the same way as before. The lengths of the relay tracks would not have suddenly changed. e) The through tracks, the relay tracks, layup tracks, middle tracks, the various switches, platforms, platform tracks, towers and other items constitute the capabilities of a station. When one talks about DeKalb Avenue are they just talking about the platform area that most riders see, or are they talking about the combination of the approach tracks and switch tracks both before and after the station, the tracks inside the station, the various switches and towers, the operations of the trains that travel about and through the station. Those are the "capabilities" of the station. When a question is asked about the "relay tracks" of Broad Street - that is by definition the capabilities of the station. -------- The Bottom Line: A person asked about the history and relay tracks of two stations. Those questions were answered, those questions were NOT MOOT. The answers did not depend upon whether the M-train currently runs there are not. The current M-train not going to those stations does not make the questions MOOT. Just because the current M-train does not go to certain stations or places does not make those places, stations, or questions about them MOOT. That is so simple a point, did it really need to be stated? Mike |
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| (1034762) | |
Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay |
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Posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 21:50:40 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 21:34:22 2011. I understand the tunnels, but what about the actual junction where the Montague Tunnels splits into the 2 routes?I would not think that standard shields would work there, and I have not ever read of any other junctions being built underwater. In fact, junctions being built underground are very rare. Even in subways that are mined or bored, almost all the junctions are cut and cover. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 22:16:03 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Michael549 on Mon Feb 7 21:50:02 2011. Wow. Talk about totally over analyzing something.The question was about where the tracks at Chambers were planned to go (Brooklyn Bridge was mentioned as something he heard). People explained the original plans, and it was mentioned that if the center tacks at Chambers had been through routed to someplace from the center tracks, trains would not have been able to terminate at Chambers St if trains were also going to Broad St. Someone lightheartedly said that would be true, but it would be moot anyway, since the M no longer needs to terminate there anyway. Then your TOTALLY over analyzing what he meant by that. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 22:20:44 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 19:56:39 2011. Didn't the four tracks at Canal originally cut through there, and then were made to have the express tracks dead end in the station, and subsequently the Broad St bound "express track" (now Queens track) cut through once again.I thought i remember someone mentioning that when they were doing the work at Canal st to do the realignment. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 22:22:39 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:24:43 2011. Fascinating. The Nassau/Centre St line is a textbook example of grand plans and different possibilities of a line seemingly completely overbuilt. It had so many grandiose plans, as well as connections cut off over the years. A line a shadow of it's former self, but also a ghost of what it was planned to be but never even became to begin with. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Feb 8 00:23:52 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Feb 7 18:27:41 2011. I read what the OP stated..I stand by what i said... |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 8 08:07:25 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by LA Scott on Mon Feb 7 21:50:40 2011. In fact, junctions being built underground are very rare. Even in subways that are mined or bored, almost all the junctions are cut and cover.On the deep Tube lines of London, bored junctions are the norm. Northern line has two large junctions at Camden Town and Kennington. |
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Posted by LA Scott on Tue Feb 8 08:10:46 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Wado MP73 on Tue Feb 8 08:07:25 2011. Interesting. I had not thought of London, with its extensive deep tube system.I understand that London has a soil layer at tube depth that makes it uniquely suitable for this type of construction. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 8 13:40:36 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 21:31:02 2011. Larry,that single track loop was built.I had to make a delivery just before waters edge in bklyn thru an emergency exit.when I went down to track level I found the loop cutting thru the tracks AT GRADE.no tracks or anything else.I only ventured about 50 feet into both sections of the loop.My flashlite could not see tunnels end.you still can where it dips down manh.bound& iirc where it comes up bklyn.bound.both belmouths are sealed.I was there about 1967/8. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 8 14:01:39 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Randyo on Mon Feb 7 04:24:43 2011. thanks for the informative post.I was quoting from an old ERA article.Looking thru my old bulletins today it shows the 2 tracks on the right ramping up to the bklyn bridge[facing downtown]I don`t know track #s so give me a heads up.the 2 tracks heading towards bklyn.are seen as thru tracks. |
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Posted by Eric B on Tue Feb 8 16:14:48 2011, in response to Re: ''J'' and ''Z'' relay, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 7 21:31:02 2011. Wasn't there also supposed to be a ramp for the Myrtle el to be connected, but turning away from Manhattan? That would also be another way for some of the service to go. (Like a Culver-Myrtle service that doesn't enter Manhattan). |
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