|
|
| Re: SAS via Montague tunnel/Nassau Street (561112) | |||
 |
|||
| Home > SubChat | |||
|
[ Read Responses | Post a New Response | Return to the Index ] |
|
||
|
Re: SAS via Montague tunnel/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Michael549 on Tue Jan 29 12:29:06 2008, in response to Re: SAS via Montague tunnel/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Mon Jan 28 18:55:07 2008. From a previous message: "You sound like a middle/high school/college teacher who's been out of touch from the real world and forgot how to think outside of the text book. Mind you, I'm not saying you're one but you do sound like one."Usually I try to be polite on the forums, but right now I am not going to bother with being polite. This particular discussion started with the statement by Russ that, "Chambers (which is just outside of a CBD, referring to the Chambers Street station of the J-M-Z lines is considered by him to be "outside of the CBD" of Manhattan. I called him on what is basically, logically, geographically, and historically - a STUPID STATEMENT. It was a stupid statement, and in later messages he wished to support the stupid statement that he made. He does this in a number of ways: 1) He names the architects who designed the Municipal Building. Please note that any day of the week I can pull out my AIA Guide to NYC and other resources to name the architects of many buildings. On any day of the week I can also discuss the history of the area, I'm good at that. Naming the architect of the building does nothing to bolster his argument, so he tries another method: 2) Russ then tries to change the terms of the debate by saying, let's call it the Financial District. I agree that there are a number of districts in Manhattan and the city, and that there could be arguments about their boundaries. For example, define: "Lower Manhattan" - some consider that to be entire area south of 14th Street, while others use south of Canal Street. The boundary definitions of the Financial District and so many other places can be confusing - it all depends upon who is drawing the lines. One can describe "The Financial District" as a specialized district. If one is going to do that then one can also describe a "government - civic district" as containing municipal offices, court buildings, police headquarters, etc - which the Municipal Building (and the Chambers Street station under it) happens to be in the middle of. 3) Then he says that "the city" makes a distinction between "downtown" and "midtown" and that the RPA (Regional Planning Association) and the Federal Government considers them (downtown and midtown) to be distinct. In his next message, Russ than says: "Many real estate agencies consider the Midtown CBD and Lower Manhattan CBD as separate..." If you wish to consider "downtown" and "midtown" distinct districts that's ok with me. Some consider 14th Street to be the dividing line between the two, while others consider Canal Street and 31st Street to be boundaries. There was always that problematic section in the middle the "teens' and twenties" (which would make one of the city's earliest skyscrapers outside the "business district" ha, ha). Some folks really want to be bound by tight boundaries on a map often to the point of forgetting that while a boundary line often flows down the middle of a street, that the "other side of the street still exists. Usually these boundary lines are used as a short hand way to describe activities on the street and the area. This argument is a distraction from his particular point, and was meant as such. 4) Russ then says, "Who considers all of Manhattan below 59th Street one CBD? Recent discussions concerning "congestion pricing" as a way to reduce traffic in Manhattan - did not bother to consider Manhattan was containing separate districts, or boundary lines around each of the districts. In none of the discussions where there distinctions between "midtown" and "downtown" or any other "town" of Manhattan - but one mass area. Why? The City Planning Department for decades considered Manhattan below 59th Street to be the CBD, and their zoning regulations supported that decision, which does not undermine any idea that there are districts within the whole. Frankly there are times when to consider the whole area a business district as shorthand since many activities take place in a number of locations. We can be nerdy and particular but there is no need to be. 5) In his next message, Russ attempts to say that "zip code 10007 to be the north end of the latter", (meaning the Lower Manhattan CBD). That puts Chambers and Worth Sts. as the northern border." Using zip codes as boundary descriptions of neighborhoods and districts was always problematic. Drawing boundary lines for zip codes, census tracts, community districts, etc. can also be problematic. For example, the whole "Financial District" is a part of Community District #1, the building in question is located in Manhattan Census tract #29, and it is near the edge of zip code 10007. Do you want a tax-block and lot number? 6) Saying that because a building exists near the boundary line of (a census tract, zip code, a district, etc) that is "outside of" said boundary is completely silly. Russ concedes that when he says, "While it may not be outside, it is at the edge of it." One could also make the argument that since the World Trade Center was near the boundary of Manhattan, thus it is outside of Manhattan. That is a silly stupid statement on the face of it, and that needs to be made clear. 7) Then Russ says, "You sound like a middle/high school/college teacher who's been out of touch from the real world and forgot how to think outside of the text book." There are a number of readings of this statement, so I'll take each one at a time. If you are calling me a college teacher who knows their stuff and who does not stand for crap, then I will take that was a compliment. It is true, I do not allow crap to go on in my class and I expect my students to be capable of making adult serious arguments to support their contentions. If Russ is saying that I am "out of touch" and that "I forgot how to think outside of the text book" then he is sadly mistaken. This statement was meant as a distraction from the particular point that I made, and was meant as such. 8) Russ wishes to make some kind of statement about the J-train, the Second Avenue subway, and the attractivess of lower Manhattan compared to midtown, etc. Others are making arguments about an alignment for the Second Avenue subway - all fair. 9) In my original statement - I challenged the description of the Chambers Street station "AS OUTSIDE OF THE CBD". I still stand by my description, and nothing Russ has said has changed the truth of what I said. Mike |
|
|
|