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Re: HBD

Posted by JayMan on Sun Apr 29 22:19:10 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by Fred G on Sun Apr 29 21:29:51 2012.

Exactly! ;P

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Re: HBD

Posted by JayMan on Sun Apr 29 23:12:03 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Apr 29 22:09:20 2012.

Yes, but as some would note, the problem is the sizable chunk of non-Northwestern Europeans that exist.

Yup, mostly concentrated in the U.S. South (since the rave new way of life didn't catch on much in Celtic Britain, so I'm exempting them and their descendants here) with a fair amount in the Tri-State Area (our friends from Il Mezzogiorno). There is a disproportionate number of individuals in these groups that would only be all too happy to have an excuse to be bigoted.

A lot of HBD'ers, who as you note are crazy right-wingers, lament the altruistic nature of NW Euros, but I don't. As collectively the dominant power in the world by far, NW Europeans are in a position to wreak all sorts of misery upon the world if they were to so choose. Only their leftist, altruistic sentiment keeps them from doing so (and accounts for their relative restraint historically compared to all the other imperial powers in history), and by being in this position, they keep the rest of the world, such as the Eastern Europeans, East Asians, or Muslim nations, who not at all so inclined to care about the welfare of other peoples, from doing so.

FWIW, if you're an average black person that lives in within blackspheres, HBD doesn't change one's life too much, but for those of us prefer the company of non-blacks as friends or romantic interests, HBD may end up being the death sentence for our social lives.

FWIW, my gf, who is pretty much as White as they come, a mixed Germano-Celto-Balto-Slav, is aware of HBD and feels much like you do about HBD: she believes in it, but believes it's too dangerous for the public at large to consume. Her knowledge of HBD has not changed her opinion of other racial groups, and she even frowns on my discussing measures to address the situation with issues presented by certain groups, such as Mexican and Muslim immigrants. My point is that several, if not a majority of intelligent, attractive White women can come terms with HBD without thinking all people of other races are inferior or that their Black babies would have low IQ.

And as somebody who has had interest in numerous white women, the last thing that I want is for women to reject me because they'll fear that our kids will be low IQ.

I would add that if the woman does think that, she's probably too dumb for you anyway.

I think in general that many if not most of the smart, lefty Whites would continue to seek out people as color as friends, since they would then have to prove extra that they're not racist.

FWIW, I'll admit though that the flipside of HBD is that it's going to destroy the notion of the American dream as it's going to reveal that there's a sizable chunk of the white population that has no chance of going to Harvard, or arguably, even completing a four year degree in liberal arts. Whether this becomes the basis for a full blown social welfare regime to compensate the for inability of the low IQ to earn high incomes or take full care of themselves remains to be seen.

That would interesting to see. Among the loudest critics would be (and are) the biggest recipients of such aid.

The people who tend to promote HBD now tend to be anti-welfare state, and while Steve Sailor argues for reducing illegal immigration tp push up labour costs and reduce competition for low IQ workers, nobody else has much in the way of solutions to help this group other than "beat on black criminals like it's the 1950s".

Since, even if HBD went mainstream, I doubt eugenics would ever happen, I think seeking other solutions would be helpful. Truth be told, the status quo, really, isn't all that bad, griping in the HBD blogosphere notwithstanding. We're all here, we're all living together, and even though there's poverty and crime, and I suspect we would continue to do so. As such, we need not necessarily seek broad-reaching solutions (at least here in the States—the seemingly infertile Europeans have a whole other set of problems). A few small things could help.

For example, I think we could probably come to terms with reforming immigration, so we raise the average IQ of immigrants. And even if social welfare were expanded to help those who can't help themselves, births could be controlled by massively pushing family planning services like planned parenthood, and a public service campaign that lectures about the cost and responsibility of having children (inventing better and more reliable lower impact contraceptive for men would help too). That, I think, could at least maintain the status quo.

That said, I don't know what would happen to much of the Southern tier, where clannish Whites live in close contact with Blacks and Mexicans; they might be in trouble.

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Re: High Bone Density

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 23:37:02 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Apr 29 22:09:20 2012.

I'll admit though that the flipside of HBD is that it's going to destroy the notion of the American dream as it's going to reveal that there's a sizable chunk of the white population that has no chance of going to Harvard

??? You're too filled up with leftist propaganda to even know what the American dream is.

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Re: Z (tsomla) ot A morf noitazilivic nretsew fo esir eht

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 30 02:52:59 2012, in response to Re: Z (tsomla) ot A morf noitazilivic nretsew fo esir eht, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 29 14:08:50 2012.

Italians spell it "caffe".

It's a disgrace. I'm trying to confirm whether or not L'aroma del cafe is LCN.

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Re: HBD


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Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 30 12:53:10 2012, in response to Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Apr 29 13:20:28 2012.

bump



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Re: HBD

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 30 20:19:25 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by Easy on Sun Apr 29 20:23:05 2012.

The problem with teaching it in school is that I figure people just won't get it, assume that all NAMs are of low IQ and this would be much, much worse than the status quo. It's possible to acknowledge that not everyone is equal in ability, without making it about HBD. But the notion that everyone in America is either rich or soon to be rich should be disabused.

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Re: HBD

Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 30 20:43:11 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 30 20:19:25 2012.

As I've said for awhile now, people are stupid, and that's a big problem in the world.

And you are quite correct.

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Re: HBD

Posted by dand124 on Mon Apr 30 20:58:34 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by JayMan on Sun Apr 29 20:40:05 2012.

does this make you rethink your opinion?

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Re: HBD

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 07:58:06 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by JayMan on Sun Apr 29 20:40:05 2012.

You post "science" that has Northern Italians as patriarchal and Sicilians and Calabresi as egalitarian.

Your sources are a joke.

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Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,

Posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 09:24:02 2012, in response to Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,, posted by cortelyounext on Sat Apr 28 19:30:28 2012.

I am also going to try to become a curator at an art museum such as the one at Vassar or The Metropolitan Museum of Art. I can draw and paint pretty good and I took undergraduate art history classes at Colorado to include the Renaissance (North Italian and Flemish) period and Gothic Cathedrals and other stuff like that which qualifies me for those positions I think, and thanks.

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Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,

Posted by Fred G on Tue May 1 09:34:00 2012, in response to Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,, posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 09:24:02 2012.

You're a shoo-in, which means you've got the job already.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,

Posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 09:38:31 2012, in response to Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,, posted by Fred G on Tue May 1 09:34:00 2012.

You're a shoo-in...

Thanks but is that some sort of code for a type of p-e? To better illustrate my point here is a picture of one of those p-es, and thanks again for encouraging me to pursue my dream of being an art museum curator.


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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 09:55:23 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 07:58:06 2012.

You're saying that they were not this way at any point in their history, particularly the period between 1500-1900? That's a serious question, as more data is always needed.

That said, that map is very much a rough, tentative outlay, not something that is totally accurate. Numerous refinements show that the real picture regarding European family structures is a bit more complex.

I will point out another more interesting fit emerges when one looks at the farming systems of Western Europe, 1500-1900:



Does that now make more sense? I have a feeling this "egalitarian inheritance" bit applied only to the wealthy landowners, since the average Joe Schmo probably had nothing to bequeath.

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Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,

Posted by Fred G on Tue May 1 09:57:25 2012, in response to Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,, posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 09:38:31 2012.

Now that's a party on a plate which means that some heap good eats.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 10:13:06 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 09:55:23 2012.

I have a feeling this "egalitarian inheritance" bit applied only to the wealthy landowners, since the average Joe Schmo probably had nothing to bequeath.

That makes more sense.

By using phrases like "egalitarian" or "patriarchal" when referring to perhaps only 1-5% of the population in a "study" presuming to measure the historical genesis of regional and national development/underdevelopment, IQ and its associated causes is something that automatically discredits the study and makes it completely worthless at best and dangerously misinforming at worst.

You are looking at the wrong measurements.
There is a lot more to this than silly lines on maps.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 11:20:59 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 10:13:06 2012.

>>>>I have a feeling this "egalitarian inheritance" bit applied only to the wealthy landowners, since the average Joe Schmo probably had nothing to bequeath.

That makes more sense.


Good to know!

Obviously, I don't think that the family itself and what went on in the family directly impacted evolution (though it likely did somewhat, if what parents did affected the reproductive success of their offspring, like choosing who to disinherit), but rather that the whole thing is symptomatic of the overall arrangement of society. Living in a nuclear family because your parents are tenant farmers where you can't count on acquiring material goods from them, hence forcing you to go out into the world and make your own way, hoping get enough to rent your own farm, has a big impact on the type of person that succeeds.

By using phrases like "egalitarian" or "patriarchal" when referring to perhaps only 1-5% of the population in a "study" presuming to measure the historical genesis of regional and national development/underdevelopment, IQ and its associated causes is something that automatically discredits the study and makes it completely worthless at best and dangerously misinforming at worst.

Keep in mind that most Northern Europeans and most East Asians today are descended primarily from the upper classes, because their wealth gave them a huge survival boost. What the nobility did and whatever selective forces they were under has big implications for modern populations.

As well, you're seriously underestimating the proportion of people directly participating the prevailing system. Most of the European interior—including much of Northern Italy—had the "stem" family system, where the average Joe farmed his own land, often inheriting it from his parents (depending on if he was the lucky son). Those in the English tenant farming system were in a similar position. Obviously the sharecropoppers in the red areas were directly affected by the system under which they lived.

Even in the large estates where farmers were just employees and didn't own anything (the blue areas), selective forces were at work. Presumably, access to mates was governed by being a capable worker (though, I'd imagine, not necessarily a bright one). Since these are the areas mostly outside the Hajnal line, and the areas of reduced average IQ today (southern Spain, southern Italy, Greece), I'd imagine that again we may able to look at selective forces under this system. Obviously, a landless farm hand doesn't have to be anywhere near as bright as farmer who owns/rents the land and has a vested interest in its success. Further, it's in the landlord's interest simply to have more workers, not necessarily better ones, so they may have encouraged marriage and breeding among the help; which may explain the earlier marriage that was customary in these places. Cousin marriage may have been more common there just for that reason (so much easier to just find a cousin to marry rather than go out into the world and woo the right woman).

Here's a question, how was life for the average Joe in Southern Italy in these times? What was the traditional farm in Sicily like?

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 11:42:17 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 11:20:59 2012.

Since these are the areas mostly outside the Hajnal line, and the areas of reduced average IQ today (southern Spain, southern Italy, Greece), I'd imagine that again we may able to look at selective forces under this system.

Even those IQs are still higher than those in most parts of America.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, lower IQs in those regions in 2012 have to do with 20th century migration patterns and brain drain, not 14th century farm economics.



Your relying on those shit maps and theories discredits your own blog.

Here's a question, how was life for the average Joe in Southern Italy in these times? What was the traditional farm in Sicily like?

In the Middle Ages?
It sucked. Just like it sucked everywhere else.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 12:05:24 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 11:42:17 2012.

You're not exactly being very helpful in investigating this. It sounds more like you don't want to believe it. Is it best to dismiss what I'm saying out of hand rather than examine it?

Even those IQs are still higher than those in most parts of America.

Not really. They're mostly comparable to the regions of reduced average IQ in the States (e.g., Appalachia), in good part because the people in many of these areas descend from one of these low-IQ areas of Europe (in this case the Northwestern British Isles).

As has been pointed out repeatedly, lower IQs in those regions in 2012 have to do with 20th century migration patterns and brain drain, not 14th century farm economics.

They have, and I've proven that wrong. Again, seems highly intellectually unkosher of you to dismiss the effects of centuries of farm economics.

>>Here's a question, how was life for the average Joe in Southern Italy in these times? What was the traditional farm in Sicily like?

In the Middle Ages?
It sucked. Just like it sucked everywhere else.


The devil is in the details, my friend. Precisely how things sucked and for who makes a world of difference as to who was more successful in leaving descendants to the present day, which is what we're interested in.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 12:15:27 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 12:05:24 2012.

They're mostly comparable to the regions of reduced average IQ in the States (e.g., Appalachia), in good part because the people in many of these areas descend from one of these low-IQ areas of Europe (in this case the Northwestern British Isles).

No, it's because the smart people in Appalachia leave. Those smart people bring up the average IQ in the areas where they move to.

NYC is composed mostly of people from areas that you describe as low IQ, yet it has one of the highest IQs in the nation.
Can this be because the smartest people from all over the place move here rather than something magical in the water?


They have, and I've proven that wrong. Again, seems highly intellectually unkosher of you to dismiss the effects of centuries of farm economics.

It seems even more intellectually unkosher of you to prefer going with ridiculous "data" from when the population was a tiny fraction of what it's been in the last 100 years and where historical comparisons would be impossible over the well-known and documented historical, economical, social and demographic phenomenons of the last 6-10-15 decades.


The devil is in the details, my friend. Precisely how things sucked and for who makes a world of difference as to who was more successful in leaving descendants to the present day, which is what we're interested in.

The plague, bad sanitation, TB and wars sucked for everyone.


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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 12:55:09 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 12:15:27 2012.

And the reason the smart people move out is because it's hard for them to live among dumb people. When will you understand what AVERAGE means?

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 13:49:50 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 12:15:27 2012.

>>>>They're mostly comparable to the regions of reduced average IQ in the States (e.g., Appalachia), in good part because the people in many of these areas descend from one of these low-IQ areas of Europe (in this case the Northwestern British Isles).

No, it's because the smart people in Appalachia leave. Those smart people bring up the average IQ in the areas where they move to.


The phenomenon of brain drain and the notion of pre-existing differences in average IQ between to populations aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Brain drain could serve to exacerbate the pre-existing differences in the average IQ of two regions, as the brighter members of the overall less intelligent group flee the poor prospects of their home region for better lives among the more intelligent folk. Even in that situation, the question become how did those regional differences start in the first place?

In fact, something like that may have occurred with Southern Italian migration: not necessarily to Northern Italy, but to the United States. Italian Americans, who are overwhelmingly of Southern Italian origin, have an average IQ of about 100, significantly smarter than those in the Old Country, and indeed, as a group, Italian-Americans have done well here. It appears that some intense selection was in play for those emigrating to the States. This process was likely also at work within Italy itself and the rest of the Europe, but genetic evidence demonstrate that migration alone couldn't be responsible for the observed differences in the average IQ among modern Italians.

NYC is composed mostly of people from areas that you describe as low IQ, yet it has one of the highest IQs in the nation.
Can this be because the smartest people from all over the place move here rather than something magical in the water?


Cities in general are too small units of the general population to be representative of the overall average IQ. Cities, especially economically vital ones, tend to attract smart people to them. So with cities, it's understood that brain drain and the subsequent founder effect is the source of their higher than average IQ. By contrast, Southern Italy, as well as Southern Spain/Portugal, Northern and Eastern Britain/Ireland, and all of Southeastern Europe are much larger than any city.

In the States, Hawaii, which is a fairly well-off place economically, has a lower than average White IQ. Is that due to brain drain, or to massive amounts of Portuguese immigration?

>>>Again, seems highly intellectually unkosher of you to dismiss the effects of centuries of farm economics.

It seems even more intellectually unkosher of you to prefer going with ridiculous "data" from when the population was a tiny fraction of what it's been in the last 100 years and where historical comparisons would be impossible over the well-known and documented historical, economical, social and demographic phenomenons of the last 6-10-15 decades.


The medieval/pre-modern theory of European evolution is still preliminary, but pretty damned convincing. The conditions and status of the people in Europe isn't as well documented during this time as it is for more recent times, but it's not like we have nothing at all. What we have is fairly good and is in line with the results seen today.

As well, a smaller earlier population would mean that the effects of selection are even more powerful. That's a basic concept of evolution by natural selection.

>>>>The devil is in the details, my friend. Precisely how things sucked and for who makes a world of difference as to who was more successful in leaving descendants to the present day, which is what we're interested in.

The plague, bad sanitation, TB and wars sucked for everyone.


Indeed, but it is these forces that created the selective pressures that raised average IQs to their modern levels.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 13:54:53 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 13:49:50 2012.

Who are you?

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:01:41 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 12:55:09 2012.

As more people move, it dumbs down the average even further.

JayMan goes by the premise that populations in any area are static when in fact they are dynamic whether by inflow or outflow.
He then uses those averages as an indictment (or celebration) of the IQ of those areas entire native and descendant population as if there is something genetic that contributes to it rather than population shifts due mainly to economic, social and historical conditions.

he then relies on ridiculous data from the Middle Ages as if nothing has happened anywhere since.

Hence his conclusion that people born in Appalachia or Calabria are on average inherently stupid.

Some of the smartest people I've met are from places like Alabama, the Ozarks, Basilicata and Calabria.

Of course none of them were still living there.

Some of the stupidest people I've ever met are from NY or Northern Italy. They never left because they didn't need to but to someone like JayMan, these are outliers when in fact the average IQ in all these places would be similar if not for the migratory patterns and resulting brain drain/gain..



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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 14:04:46 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 12:55:09 2012.

To be fair, he's saying that economic disadvantage lowers the average IQ of an area with time, since it is drained of its smartest members. Theoretically, two groups, both with the same average IQ initially, can come to develop gaps in the average IQ if the smart members of one group migrate to live with the others.

If, for example, the people of Charles Murray's hypothetical Belmont and Fishtown start off with the same average IQ, but Belmont experiences an economic boom, the smart people from Fishtown will come over, raising the average IQ of Belmont and lowering that of Fishtown (which, ironically, is what is actually responsible for what Murray describes in his book). This is the process that SMAZ is claiming is responsible for the differences between Northern and Southern Italy (and presumably the Northern and Southern U.S.).

Of course, this process does not require a priori that the two regions need start with the same average IQ, and there is the issue of why one became economically productive while the other didn't. As well, we are left wondering why one began to prosper while the other didn't. It could be circumstances (say, oil, or a favorable shipping location), but it could just as easily be the initial differences in the population. In other words, proving the existence of brain drain doesn't disprove that there were initial differences in the average IQ.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 14:05:08 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:01:41 2012.

Actually, their populations were largely static until the 19th century. The fact that you met a few outliers doesn't change the average.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:17:10 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 13:49:50 2012.

In fact, something like that may have occurred with Southern Italian migration: not necessarily to Northern Italy, but to the United States. Italian Americans, who are overwhelmingly of Southern Italian origin, have an average IQ of about 100, significantly smarter than those in the Old Country, and indeed, as a group, Italian-Americans have done well here.

And you somehow know what the average IQs of Southern Italians were BEFORE the great migration to the US between roughly 1880-1924?

ALL sorts of Southerners moved to the US back then. The smart, the average and the idiots.
After modern Northern Italian agricultural practices wiped out the Southern economy after Unification, they basically had no choice and landowners and the Italian Government were PAYING them to leave for America because they didn't want them up North and were afraid of riots if they stayed put in the economically-destroyed South.

But Parisian ideologues conducting bullshit studies don't tell you this, do they?

It appears that some intense selection was in play for those emigrating to the States. This process was likely also at work within Italy itself and the rest of the Europe, but genetic evidence demonstrate that migration alone couldn't be responsible for the observed differences in the average IQ among modern Italians.

It appears? Appears from what? Because some fuck whose never left his living room or lecture hall in his life said so?

Cities in general are too small units of the general population to be representative of the overall average IQ.

A city of more than 8 million is too small to be representative but regions of less than a million somehow make for perfect sampling?

Make up your mind.

In the States, Hawaii, which is a fairly well-off place economically, has a lower than average White IQ. Is that due to brain drain, or to massive amounts of Portuguese immigration?

It's due to a lucrative tourism industry plus the military complex and related jobs.
Your favorite French guy wouldn't know that though.

The conditions and status of the people in Europe isn't as well documented during this time as it is for more recent times,

Yet you go with that data rather than known modern history.

Indeed, but it is these forces that created the selective pressures that raised average IQs to their modern levels.

How? Medicine went nowhere until the 19th century.


I totally pwned you.
Try harder ;->


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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 14:23:22 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:01:41 2012.

JayMan goes by the premise that populations in any area are static when in fact they are dynamic whether by inflow or outflow.

I said no such thing. I repeated admitted that brain drain plays a role in the differences we see. Don't use a straw man. We are discussing the degree, not whether this occurred.

He then uses those averages as an indictment (or celebration) of the IQ of those areas entire native and descendant population as if there is something genetic that contributes to it rather than population shifts due mainly to economic, social and historical conditions.

Keep in mind that up until recent times, most people didn't move very much. Long-range travel is difficult in a world without telephones or automobiles.

Besides, in the case of Italy, the argument is moot. The Italian regions are clearly genetically distinct. The differences in IQ of the modern populations is primarily endemic.

Hence his conclusion that people born in Appalachia or Calabria are on average inherently stupid.

Some of the smartest people I've met are from places like Alabama, the Ozarks, Basilicata and Calabria.

Of course none of them were still living there.

Some of the stupidest people I've ever met are from NY or Northern Italy. They never left because they didn't need to but to someone like JayMan


Don't tell me you're going down that road and are not understanding the concept of AVERAGE. I know some really smart people from the South. And Rick Santorum, a Northern Italian, should close the argument on that front for all times... ;P

these are outliers when in fact the average IQ in all these places would be similar if not for the migratory patterns and resulting brain drain/gain..

Your making a bridge too far. If you're going to conclude the average IQ initially were the same, the burden of proof is on you. But again, as shown, thanks to genetic evidence, that argument is already DoA.

Never mind that you're talking to a high-IQ Black man...


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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:30:37 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 14:05:08 2012.

Actually, their populations were largely static until the 19th century.

Indeed.

But JayMan uses 21st century IQ averages, well after migrations have happened without knowing what the pre-existing IQs were.
This means he needs to study what happened in the last 150 years or so and not what was happening in 1384 in the Jutland Peninsula.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:38:40 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 14:23:22 2012.

Never mind that you're talking to a high-IQ Black man...

and you are talking with someone of 100% Southern Italian descent.
'
(I will not publish my IQ)

If institutions had it your way, we'd both would have been put on the Short Bus based solely on our ancestry.

It doesn't matter that if Puglia were a nation, their current residents would still be in the top 20 among nations.

A terrone is a terrone.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 14:46:22 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:38:40 2012.

He's made it clear that individuals should be judged individually. because of those outliers like you two.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 14:53:41 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:17:10 2012.

Seriously, where do I begin:

>>>>In fact, something like that may have occurred with Southern Italian migration: not necessarily to Northern Italy, but to the United States. Italian Americans, who are overwhelmingly of Southern Italian origin, have an average IQ of about 100, significantly smarter than those in the Old Country, and indeed, as a group, Italian-Americans have done well here.

And you somehow know what the average IQs of Southern Italians were BEFORE the great migration to the US between roughly 1880-1924?

ALL sorts of Southerners moved to the US back then. The smart, the average and the idiots.
After modern Northern Italian agricultural practices wiped out the Southern economy after Unification, they basically had no choice and landowners and the Italian Government were PAYING them to leave for America because they didn't want them up North and were afraid of riots if they stayed put in the economically-destroyed South.


Certainly interesting. But today, we have:

Average IQ of Italian Americans (predominantly Southern Italian): 100
Average IQ of Southern Italians in Italy: ranging from 96-90

As well:

>>>>It appears that some intense selection was in play for those emigrating to the States. This process was likely also at work within Italy itself and the rest of the Europe, but genetic evidence demonstrate that migration alone couldn't be responsible for the observed differences in the average IQ among modern Italians.

It appears? Appears from what? Because some fuck whose never left his living room or lecture hall in his life said so?


No, because the data says so:

(Northern Italians white
Central Italians green diamonds
"Southern" Italians [Italian Americans] yellow):





Northern and Southern Italians are genetically distinct populations, as seen from these genetic markers. Brain drain couldn't be solely responsible for the observed IQ differences because they don't genetically cluster together, which they would if the north of Italy was full of smart Southern Italians.

>>>>Cities in general are too small units of the general population to be representative of the overall average IQ.

A city of more than 8 million is too small to be representative but regions of less than a million somehow make for perfect sampling?

Make up your mind.


Don't be obtuse, clearly all the residents of NYC are a mere fraction of the source populations from which the city drew its inhabitants.

>>>In the States, Hawaii, which is a fairly well-off place economically, has a lower than average White IQ. Is that due to brain drain, or to massive amounts of Portuguese immigration?

It's due to a lucrative tourism industry plus the military complex and related jobs.


My point is that the lowered White IQ of Hawaii couldn't be due to brain drain, as where did the brains drain to?

>>>Indeed, but it is these forces that created the selective pressures that raised average IQs to their modern levels.

How? Medicine went nowhere until the 19th century.


Because people in the lower classes (who were primarily the ignoramuses of society), lacking access to the posh life of the rich, died off in significant numbers or typically failed to raise a lot of healthy children to adulthood. In effect, modern technology, which has greatly improved the quality of life of people, has—in a tragic irony—been lowering the average IQ of the population by allowing the poor and stupid to survive and breed, something that was a lot harder in days gone by.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 14:58:19 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by JayMan on Tue May 1 14:23:22 2012.

Never mind that you're talking to a high-IQ Black man...


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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 15:00:00 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:17:10 2012.

I totally pwned you. Try harder ;->

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 15:00:08 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 14:46:22 2012.

He's made it clear that individuals should be judged individually. because of those outliers like you two.


Who are those doing the judging?

Most likely, people dumber than JayMan and I who are more concerned about stereotypes and liability than objectivity.





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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue May 1 15:01:02 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 14:46:22 2012.

Yeah, it seems that he's made that very clear, over and over.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 1 15:01:30 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 15:00:08 2012.

Like when hiring for a job or something.

The problem is that he's either right or wrong, and if he is, without some kind of policy in place, profiling WILL occur.

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by Fred G on Tue May 1 15:10:21 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by cortelyounext on Tue May 1 14:58:19 2012.

Sounds like somebody got the clap...

your pal,
Fred

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Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance

Posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 1 16:01:17 2012, in response to Re: HBD -- Farming and Inheritance, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 14:38:40 2012.

and you are talking with someone of 100% Southern Italian descent.

No such thing. There are Sicilians and Mainland Italians. That's it!!!

(I will not publish my IQ)

Why not?

If institutions had it your way, we'd both would have been put on the Short Bus based solely on our ancestry.

That's an exaggeration.


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Re: HBD

Posted by orange blossom special on Tue May 1 17:41:14 2012, in response to Re: HBD, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 1 07:58:06 2012.

Least he has the courage to source things unlike you

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Re: For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 2 17:27:05 2012, in response to For LuchAAA, SMAZ, JayZee, Scorpio7, AEM7, Spider-Pig, gp38/r42 chris,, posted by JayMan on Sat Apr 28 13:35:48 2012.

Scorpio7. There's a handle I totally forgot about. I haven't read one of his posts in at least six months.



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