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| Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy (726413) | |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 07:25:15 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 02:40:56 2012. Are they gonna give Mubarek a shave and send him back? :)your pal, Fred |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 07:47:27 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Jun 18 07:15:37 2012. The Egyptian people voted for military rule? That is news to me.As for the people I called out, my issue with them is that if you read their posts 18 months ago, they didn't seem to accept the possibility that this might end with Islamists in power. The Egyptians might have democracy, but I doubt that is what some Subchatters envisioned 18 months ago. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 07:52:25 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 07:25:15 2012. I'm sure they would if it weren't for the fact I sense now that the generals have had a turn running the country, they like the job. A lot. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 18 08:36:07 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 07:47:27 2012. Like the typical provincial American, ClearAspect tries to find parallels to his own country and is largely ignorant of the French Revolution, which while not perfectly analogous here, still appears to be more analogous. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 08:42:30 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 18 08:36:07 2012. ClearAspect has proven to be even unaware of how some things outside of New York City work over the years he has posted here. Perhaps he should start with figuring out the US, then he can take on the rest of the world. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 18 09:54:26 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 07:47:27 2012. I was one of the ones that were not cheering at the JayZee types claiming how "wonderful" it was at the time. I dared to say that whenever these things happen and there are Islamics ready to take power, there's a SEVERE problem. And here we have it. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 09:57:03 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 18 09:54:26 2012. I think all of us know which camps we were all in 18 months ago. The question is how many of us are willing to admit where we were then? Maybe history will prove some of the people I called out to be right in the end, who knows? But from my vantage point, things are not looking good... |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 11:22:37 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 02:40:56 2012. iawtp |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 18 11:28:33 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 08:42:30 2012. He also has a tendency to believe without question that the way he sees things or what he believes is "the" correct position and everyone else is wrong. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 11:35:37 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 07:47:27 2012. I don't think this is the final chapter and to say the Egyptian situation is volatile may be an understatement. That said, you guys may be eating your words in 18 months. I would be hard pressed to guess the future here. After all I stated 18 months ago that Mubarek wasn't going anywhere :Pyour pal, Fred |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 18 11:39:55 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 09:57:03 2012. I would love to have been proven wrong on this one, but as the Islamics continue to take over Egypt, it doesn't look good. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 18 11:40:49 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 11:35:37 2012. I would LOVE to eat my words on this, as the alternative (which appears to be happening) is not good. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 12:26:41 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 04:27:12 2012. And from the French Revolution until real rule by the people took at least 80 years, and more like 160 for what we would consider a real democracy.As for the Russian Revolution, who knows how long it will take? |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 12:28:44 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 04:50:39 2012. ClearAspect had reason to be optimistic at the time. His statements were optimistic when he made them but they weren't outright false. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:29:50 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 02:40:56 2012. Given a choice between a secular dictatorship and the Muslim Brotherhood, give me some of the former.Note the Dolt-in-Chief is doing nothing. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 12:34:39 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:29:50 2012. What IS Romney opining on the subject?Oh, ok your pal, Fred |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:39:02 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 12:34:39 2012. Romney isn't president yet. I'm kinda happy he's not complicating Obama's job by publically calling for a different policy than the current one. That would be a mess, as we saw in 2008 when candidate Obama constantly undermined Bush, particularly with regards to Pakistan. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 12:51:40 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:29:50 2012. Note the Dolt-in-Chief is doing nothing.You think that's a bad idea? At the moment neither the Egyptian military nor the people think of the US as the enemy. That's very good and takes a careful balancing act. No matter who wins out we aren't despised. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon Jun 18 12:54:10 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 12:51:40 2012. That makes absolute sense. This is an issue the Egyptians have to resolve among themselves. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 13:42:55 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:29:50 2012. There isn't much good that Obama can do in this situation if you ask me. What do you want him to do? |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 13:45:02 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 11:35:37 2012. It might not be the final chapter and it is a volatile situation, but some of us are a bit more willing to admit our wrong predictions (I doubted Mubarak would step down in the first place) than others. While I certainly don't want to be nearly as alarmist as some with regard to what is going on in Egypt, others seem to be in denial that this hasn't worked out as they had hoped so far. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 13:46:48 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 13:42:55 2012. Chris wants him to say:"Geez this is complicated. I bet Mitt would be a lot better at figuring out what to do than me." |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 15:33:29 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 13:45:02 2012. I knew somebody else shared my opinion that Mubarek was staying. Pass the salt :)I'm concerned but not alarmed. your pal, Fred |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 15:52:09 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 04:50:39 2012. Good job choosing 3 posts that HAVE nothing to do with the point you're trying to make. If you read many of the other posts in the thread, I've said it many times that this change to democracy wasn't going to happen over night nor be easy but you chose to promptly ignore those in order to further your point.Your bias is very clear that you do not care for the Egyptian people, you're more concerned with who is leading the nation and whether they will respect any peace treaties or secure the border with Israel. If you tell me other wise, you sir are trying to fool the wrong person. Once again, I'm still quite optimistic, the people are still on the streets, protesting and fighting for their freedoms and rights, however you seemed to omit that information as well. The US needed over 90 years to settle down from independence to the end of the civil war, for democracy and a certain amount of freedom then needed another 100 years to give us civil rights. So to sell out Egypt this early in the game is to be ignorant of history, and for someone who says I don't know facts, you seem to be forgetting a lot yourself. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 16:18:36 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 15:52:09 2012. Good job choosing 3 posts that HAVE nothing to do with the point you're trying to make. If you read many of the other posts in the thread, I've said it many times that this change to democracy wasn't going to happen over night nor be easy but you chose to promptly ignore those in order to further your point.Good spin job. My point still stands, what you (and others) said at first and the song you are singing now are not one in the same. Others have been more consistent in their views. Your bias is very clear that you do not care for the Egyptian people, you're more concerned with who is leading the nation and whether they will respect any peace treaties or secure the border with Israel. If you tell me other wise, you sir are trying to fool the wrong person. I've explained this before, and I'll explain it again. The Egyptian people have a right to choose their government. However, I also have a right to object to their choice if their choice puts my own safety and security at risk. Seeing as I live in a country whose security on its southern border hinges entirely on the aforementioned peace treaty, I think I have a vested interest in making sure it remains in effect. Seeing as the Sinai Peninsula has descended into lawlessness and there was a terrorist attack this morning on the Israeli-Egyptian border, and it hasn't been the first since the revolution, I think I have reason to be concerned about what is going on down there. Meanwhile, you can live comfortably in New York without worrying about disturbances 6000 miles away. I'll also assume you've never been to Egypt in your life. I was there in November 2009, as were other tourists. There are no tourists there now, which is a major problem since tourism is the biggest economic generator for the country. As Shimon Peres said in an interview with the Washington Post last week, if the Muslim Brotherhood imposes Islamic Law in Egypt, they will bring the economy crashing down, not that it was very strong in the first place, because Islamic law discourages Western tourists from visiting. As Peres put it, no bikinis, no tourists. It doesn't take long for any visitor to Cairo to realize that people there are very poor and are highly dependent on baksheesh, much of which probably comes from willing tourists, to try to make ends meet. Now, if you think it is out of the realm of possibility that if the going gets tough economically, whoever next leads Egypt isn't going to try to channel anger among the population towards Israel instead of ineffective domestic policies, I have a bridge to sell you. And if you somehow think that it is to the advantage of the average Egyptian for Egypt to break its peace treaty or have a conflict arise on its border with Israel, then can you claim to have the interests of the Egyptian people in mind? So do you understand where I'm coming from at this point, or is it still too difficult a concept to grasp? Or do you think the risk of all out war in the Middle East is a price worth paying so some people can have "democracy"? the people are still on the streets, protesting and fighting for their freedoms and rights THAT is your only reason for being optimistic? Do you have others? What about if the next government doesn't allow such protests? The US needed over 90 years to settle down from independence to the end of the civil war, for democracy and a certain amount of freedom then needed another 100 years to give us civil rights. Who is "us"? I'm not going to "spill ink" refuting this line of thinking, others have done it already. I'm willing to wait and see how this plays out (provided my own security is not at risk, you need to explain why I shouldn't be concerned about that), but be honest, things aren't looking too good for the short term right now. And the failure of certain people on this forum to admit that things aren't going so well right now in Egypt is getting to be hard to ignore. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 16:35:47 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 16:18:36 2012. Who is "us"? I'm not going to "spill ink" refuting this line of thinking, others have done it already."US" in capitals Usually Means.. United States... |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:02:45 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 16:35:47 2012. Um, read further along. It wasn't in capitals then. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 17:05:16 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 12:51:40 2012. At this moment, almost anything Obama could say could make things worse.So much for a) outreach to the Arab World b) Arab Spring. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 17:06:30 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:02:45 2012. Are you Referring to this sentence??The US needed over 90 years to settle down from independence to the end of the civil war, for democracy and a certain amount of freedom then needed another 100 years to give us civil rights. Thats the one it looks like to me now unless you are talking about another Post please feel free to point it out.. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 17:07:53 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 13:46:48 2012. Well Jimmy Carter earlier said that he had no fear how this would all turn out because it would be the people's will. I don't think Obama would want to follow those sentiments. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 17:10:19 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 16:18:36 2012. So security > peoples freedoms and rights? |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 17:14:57 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 17:10:19 2012. So security > peoples freedoms and rights?In some cases yes it is... THIW.. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 18 17:23:00 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 04:27:12 2012. Americans elected the good guys to lead the USA in 1860 and 1864, not the bad ones.It's why the scum tried to secede. You have things reversed with the Egypt situation. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 18 17:24:45 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 12:28:44 2012. and as my posts in this thread prove, SMAZ nailed it 100%. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:29:34 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 18 12:28:44 2012. The problem is that he (and others) seem to be unwilling to admit that their optimistic viewpoints have yet to play out, and there is plenty of valid analysis that shows that there are many reasons to be pessimistic about what is going on. He fails to acknowledge why others are maintaining other opinions and generally attacks them. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:30:11 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 17:06:30 2012. The US needed over 90 years to settle down from independence to the end of the civil war, for democracy and a certain amount of freedom then needed another 100 years to give us civil rights.See it now??? |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:32:02 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 17:10:19 2012. You take my entire argument and only respond with one measly sentence? And you don't even answer my question about why people's freedom and rights trump other people's right to live securely without facing the threat of war breaking out? Why don't you try having a civil conversation instead of just trying to pick your way around my arguments to convince yourself that you've "won" the debate? |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 17:33:22 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:30:11 2012. Ah..Perhaps he meant this.. Us>People of Color in this Country?? |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 18 17:33:28 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Fred G on Mon Jun 18 12:34:39 2012. HAHA!! |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:50:39 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 17:33:22 2012. Perhaps, but I'd like for him to explain it since it is unclear... |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Jun 18 17:51:12 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:50:39 2012. Fair Enough.. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 17:56:06 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 18 17:32:02 2012. Simply because if you don't give people rights and freedoms and not take risks, then Israel is sending a message counter to what it is. It calls itself a democracy, yet its foreign policy is opposite of that in the name of security. Israel could've been a beacon, a leader, and supported those fighting for freedom and equal rights HOWEVER instead Israel became hypocrites and stayed silent. So much for being a beacon of freedom and democracy, I guess Israel is only for those privileged enough to get over the other side of the fence?Democracy doesn't happen overnight, democracy doesn't happen like a fast food restaurant and when you stay silent while pretending to preach something, it makes you a hypocrite. So enjoy being in Israel with your freedoms, while people are fighting and dying for theirs. I hope you feel better for it. |
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Egypt Revolts; Muslim Brotherhood candidate wins presidency |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 17:56:37 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:29:50 2012. Not only the choice between that and just the MB, but having to choose between the military and a MB president with no parliament (recently dissolved) who stands a good chance of becoming an autocrat if the people demand that the military back down?Daily Telegraph The "liberals and revolutionaries" are irrelevant; the election proved that. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jun 18 23:10:21 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 18 17:23:00 2012. Good post. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 19 02:45:30 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 17:56:06 2012. No country maintains a foreign policy that possibly results in that country going to war or being wiped off the face of the earth. This is a point that Olog and I actually agree on, foreign policies serve the interests of the country that is setting its own policy. One can debate whether a specific policy is actually beneficial, but you cannot deny the risks at stake for Israel with the Muslim Brotherhood running the show in Egypt. Should the US begin to recognize terrorist governments such as that of Hamas in Gaza because the people in Gaza voted for that government? By your logic, the answer seems to be yes. Are the Americans hypocritical and no longer a beacon of freedom and democracy because the US government doesn't recognize the democratically elected government within the Gaza Strip?Israel is still a beacon of freedom and democracy, the religious establishment does not have unilateral control over most governmental affairs on a daily basis and religious law does not rule the land. There are fair and free elections on a regular basis. People protests and are outspoken against the government. Minorities can vote and have political representation. Many of those things aren't happening in Egypt, because as you rightly point out, we are only 18 months in. But when an organization that first maintained it wouldn't field candidates and thinks that Egypt should be governed by religious laws wins a majority of the seats in parliament (and doesn't play by the rules to do it), do you really feel that good about the odds of those those defining aspects of democracy that exist in Israel today showing up in Egypt in the near future? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love to be wrong and can admit it when I am, but I think I have quite a bit of reason for being concerned that I might be right. Perhaps you should have tried to figure out Israel's official policy towards the Egyptian Revolution (to the extent it has one) before labeling Israel's policy, which is not all that different from that of other countries. This may not be a bad place to start/a>, Google would be another. Paying attention to things such as WHY Israelis might be concerned about an Islamist government in Egypt before lambasting them for their concerns might get you a bit more respect around here when you enter in to these sorts of discussions. Also, not answering a single question about why you make the points you do is inconsiderate IMHO (I'd love to be proven wrong on this and actually have you answer the questions in this post which would allow me to understand why you feel the way you do about these issues, even if I don't end up agreeing with you). Frankly, I find it hard (and I sense others do, too) to have a reasonable discussion with you when you ignore what people actually have to say and the facts on the ground and instead just narrow in on a few choice words that you think will somehow prove the other person to be wrong. You don't only do it in this thread, you have done it in many others over the years. If you think people don't notice your tactics, you are wrong. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 19 02:46:05 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 18 17:56:06 2012. No country maintains a foreign policy that possibly results in that country going to war or being wiped off the face of the earth. This is a point that Olog and I actually agree on, foreign policies serve the interests of the country that is setting its own policy. One can debate whether a specific policy is actually beneficial, but you cannot deny the risks at stake for Israel with the Muslim Brotherhood running the show in Egypt. Should the US begin to recognize terrorist governments such as that of Hamas in Gaza because the people in Gaza voted for that government? By your logic, the answer seems to be yes. Are the Americans hypocritical and no longer a beacon of freedom and democracy because the US government doesn't recognize the democratically elected government within the Gaza Strip?Israel is still a beacon of freedom and democracy, the religious establishment does not have unilateral control over most governmental affairs on a daily basis and religious law does not rule the land. There are fair and free elections on a regular basis. People protests and are outspoken against the government. Minorities can vote and have political representation. Many of those things aren't happening in Egypt, because as you rightly point out, we are only 18 months in. But when an organization that first maintained it wouldn't field candidates and thinks that Egypt should be governed by religious laws wins a majority of the seats in parliament (and doesn't play by the rules to do it), do you really feel that good about the odds of those those defining aspects of democracy that exist in Israel today showing up in Egypt in the near future? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love to be wrong and can admit it when I am, but I think I have quite a bit of reason for being concerned that I might be right. Perhaps you should have tried to figure out Israel's official policy towards the Egyptian Revolution (to the extent it has one) before labeling Israel's policy, which is not all that different from that of other countries. This may not be a bad place to start, Google would be another. Paying attention to things such as WHY Israelis might be concerned about an Islamist government in Egypt before lambasting them for their concerns might get you a bit more respect around here when you enter in to these sorts of discussions. Also, not answering a single question about why you make the points you do is inconsiderate IMHO (I'd love to be proven wrong on this and actually have you answer the questions in this post which would allow me to understand why you feel the way you do about these issues, even if I don't end up agreeing with you). Frankly, I find it hard (and I sense others do, too) to have a reasonable discussion with you when you ignore what people actually have to say and the facts on the ground and instead just narrow in on a few choice words that you think will somehow prove the other person to be wrong. You don't only do it in this thread, you have done it in many others over the years. If you think people don't notice your tactics, you are wrong. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 19 02:46:37 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 19 02:45:30 2012. Sorry for the HTML typo, I reposted with the tag properly closed. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 19 02:58:45 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 19 02:45:30 2012. i just lost a ton of respect for you WMATA. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 19 02:59:16 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 19 02:46:05 2012. I just lost a ton of respect for you WMATA. |
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Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 19 04:04:51 2012, in response to Re: Egypt Revolts! Looks like we have more Military Rule, not Democracy, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jun 19 02:59:16 2012. ??? |
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