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Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under "international law"

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 20 01:16:09 2011

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Ain't it great when it's not a slow news day in Germany . . . ? They've been denying reparations to former POWs (especially former Red Army ones) on this twisted pretext. And one would think that reinvoking the Munich Agreement was bad enough (but not for the neo-Chamberlains I guess) . . .

Permitted under International Law

2011/06/20
BERLIN — The German government is still refusing reparations to Soviet prisoners of war, seventy years after the German invasion of the Soviet Union. This refusal is in spite of the fact that hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers were held in camps similar to concentration camps and were forced to do slave labor for German agricultural and industrial enterprises under deadly conditions. Even though the Foundation "Remembrance, Responsibility and Future," founded by Berlin in 2000, envisaged reparations for surviving slave laborers, Red Army prisoners of war as well as "Italian military detainees" were excluded from the defined scope of application of this foundations act. German courts have always dismissed lawsuits of reparation claims brought by surviving Soviet POWs — with the argument that "slave labor was permitted under international law."

Conditions Similar to Concentration Camps

The historian Ulrich Herbert discovered that during World War II, up to twelve million people had been deported from their Wehrmacht occupied homelands to Germany, where they had been detained in camps. By the end of the war, most of them found themselves still on the territory of the former German Reich and were classified by the allies under the catch-all term "Displaced Persons" (DPs). They included around six million so-called alien workers, more than half of whom were from Poland and the Soviet Union. They, for the most part, had been deported to Germany as laborers. In addition, approx. 750,000 concentration camp inmates — more than 90 percent non-Germans — had been sent mainly to work in the arms industry under murderous conditions. The DPs also included approximately two million prisoners of war, who were also used as slave labor in industry and agriculture. The largest portion of these were soldiers of the Red Army, the French and the Italian military.1 In 1944 alone, more than 600,000 Soviet POWs were forced into slave labor in the "Greater German Empire." They had been imprisoned in conditions similar to those of the concentration camps, under persistent death threats and deadly harassment by their German "employers." If they had been fed at all, then very insufficiently. And yet, they have never received reparations for their suffering at the hands of the German side.2

Half a Turnip Daily

The former Soviet soldier, Vladimir Ivanovich Margevski, from the region of Zhytomyr in the Ukraine, recounts his experiences as a prisoner of war of the Germans. "Once a day, we ate dried turnips and greens. We were doing hard, dangerous work in the fertilizer factory in the city of Beuthen, at the Bobrik train station, which also produced carbide. I will not mention here all the humiliation, which is still painful. Neither French, nor Serb, Italian, Czech and Polish POWs were treated as cruelly as we Russians. When the Germans started their retreat, we were put out in the winter like dogs, with nearly nothing to wear and barefoot. They gave us half a turnip daily to eat. En route we were locked into stalls like sheep. I will not say more. My heart bleeds, when I think back on those horrors. I, myself, am surprised that I survived at all and am still alive."3 Renowned historians estimate that the number of Soviet soldiers, who had been killed in Wehrmacht captivity was nearly three million. In a recent study, the historical scholar Wigbert Benz writes that their "number one cause of death" was starvation.4

Definition Exclusion

Reparations for Soviet prisoners of war, at least for those among them, who performed slave labor, have been strictly refused by the German side. Though the Foundation "Remembrance, Responsibility, Future" (EVZ), created in 2000 by the German government, foresaw the payment of reparations to the surviving slave laborers, Soviet prisoners of war along with "Italian military detainees" were excluded from the defined scope of application of this foundations act. Their deportation to Germany and the ensuing slave labor in industry and agriculture, it is argued, was legal under the laws of war ("ius in bello") in force at the time, explained the international jurist, Christian Tomuschat in an expertise for the German government.5 The foundation act had been formulated accordingly. Article 11, Paragraph 3 of the act stipulates, "prisoner of war status is no grounds for reparations claims."6

Murdered through Work

Attempts by Soviet POW survivors to have their claims of reparations honored through lawsuits have always seen their cases dismissed by German courts. As the lawyer, Stefan Taschjian explained in an interview with german-foreign-policy.com, sometimes the courts argued with the EVZ-Foundation Act or, if they were prepared to pay reparations at all, only to the surviving Soviet soldiers who had been held in Nazi concentration camps. Therefore, according to Taschjian, "95 percent of the former Soviet POWs are excluded from any form of reparations," since they were in the Wehrmacht's "Stalags" or POW camps. It was this justification for refusing reparations that was so "bewildering," says Taschjian. "The conditions of incarceration in the Stalags were often worst than those in concentration camps. Fifty-five percent of the Soviet prisoners were deliberately murdered through work." Besides, explains Taschjian, in German courts, slave labor still is considered "permissible under international law."7
  1. Ulrich Herbert: Nicht entschädigungsfähig? Die Wiedergutmachungsansprüche der Ausländer. In: Ludolf Herbst/Constantin Goschler (Hg.): Wiedergutmachung in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. München 1989
  2. Dietrich Eichholtz: Zwangsarbeit in der deutschen Kriegswirtschaft. In: Ulrike Winkler (Hg.): Stiften gehen. NS-Zwangsarbeit und Entschädigungsdebatte. Köln 2000
  3. KONTAKTE - KONTAKTY e. V. (Hg.): "Ich werde es nie vergessen". Briefe sowjetischer Kriegsgefangener 2004-2006. Berlin 2007
  4. Wigbert Benz: Der Hungerplan im "Unternehmen Barbarossa" 1941. Berlin 2011. Siehe auch unsere Rezension
  5. Peer Heinelt: Die Entschädigung der NS-Zwangsarbeiterinnen und -Zwangsarbeiter; www.wollheim-memorial.de
  6. Gesetz zur Errichtung einer Stiftung "Erinnerung, Verantwortung und Zukunft"; www.stiftung-evz.de
  7. s. dazu unser Interview mit Rechtsanwalt Stefan Taschjian



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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 15:18:34 2012, in response to Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under "international law", posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 20 01:16:09 2011.

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bump

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 6 16:04:07 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 15:18:34 2012.

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If slavery is defined as compelled labor, the Geneva Conventions permit it for enlisted men who are POWs, as well as NCOs as supervisors.

The Detaining Power may utilize the labour of prisoners of war who are physically fit, taking into account their age, sex, rank and physical aptitude, and with a view particularly to maintaining them in a good state of physical and mental health.

Non-commissioned officers who are prisoners of war shall only be required to do supervisory work. Those not so required may ask for other suitable work which shall, so far as possible, be found for them.
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And the U.S. Constitution explicitly understands that required labor can be considered slavery, because it permits it for prisoners.

Of course, many POWs detained by the Germans weren't so lucky as to have required labor.



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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jan 6 16:17:35 2012, in response to Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under "international law", posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 20 01:16:09 2011.

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Okay..so whats your point?

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(896224)

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Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under WANNSEE law.

Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jan 6 16:39:59 2012, in response to Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under "international law", posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 20 01:16:09 2011.

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Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under WANNSEE law.
I'm sure O'log will approve of my change to his message line.
Anyway, O'log,. does this mean that you think the USSR should have invaded Western Germany back in the day. Besides, the USSR did make many Germans do things like drive Trabants for 40 years. I guess there's no real answer to this one, O'log./

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(896225)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 6 16:40:43 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 6 16:04:07 2012.

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Yep, a guy who used to work for my father worked for the Americans (in the USA) when he was an Italian POW during WW2.



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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under international law.

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 17:38:48 2012, in response to Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under WANNSEE law., posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jan 6 16:39:59 2012.

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I'm sure O'log will approve of my change to his message line

Are you saying that international law is equivalent to what was decided during the Wannsee conference? If so, then the subject line change would certainly make sense. The present-day courts system in Germany therefore seems to say just that, or have I misinterpreted that?

Anyway, O'log,. does this mean that you think the USSR should have invaded Western Germany back in the day

Konrad Adenauer and Willy Brandt would not have minded. I do not agree with their stance on that one bit. We should have gone with Patton's vision, to keep pushing the Soviets further eastward instead of allowing the Soviets to take half of the continent.

I guess there's no real answer to this one

There's always a real answer. Just not a popular one.

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(896246)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 17:51:36 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 6 16:04:07 2012.

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The Detaining Power may utilize the labour of prisoners of war who are physically fit, taking into account their age, sex, rank and physical aptitude, and with a view particularly to maintaining them in a good state of physical and mental health.
Doesn't say "compel"; says "utilize". Even hired hands are "utilized". And the latter bit about "maintaining them in a good state of physical and mental health" still stands.

Are you citing this as "international law"? Even if so, then the rulings of the courts here are completely misinterpreting same.

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(896247)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 17:52:11 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 6 16:40:43 2012.

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So did the Yanks do to him what the Germans did to their POWs?

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(896248)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 17:53:22 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Edwards! on Fri Jan 6 16:17:35 2012.

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My point is that they're wrong, and that their making of such rulings is dangerous insofar as their reverting to the kind of state they used to be in the 30s and 40s.

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under international law.

Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jan 6 17:55:38 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under international law., posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 17:38:48 2012.

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No, but legalized slavery is the kind of thing which was endorsed at Wannsee.. As for pushing the commies back home, the Greatest Generation would NOT have gone for that one. Anyway, it's 65 years too late to corrent the course of action that WAS taken. I'll say this much though, it would have been much cheaper in both blood* and treasure to have done as you say, particularly when we had the atomic monopoly.

* Soviet lives wouldn't "count" here.

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 6 18:42:45 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 17:51:36 2012.

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If there is "international law" the Geneva Conventions are certainly it.

Doesn't say "compel"; says "utilize"

Let's not be ingenuous. Utilize in this sense means compulsory.

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(896281)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jan 6 19:03:36 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 17:51:36 2012.

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Again..i fail to seethe relevance..
whats is the point of this exercise...or are you gonna continue to dodge me like your buddy?

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(896283)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 19:11:00 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by SLRT on Fri Jan 6 18:42:45 2012.

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Utilize in this sense means compulsory

That can be challenged legally, if you want to go so far, especially in light of this. Unless you're really trying to justify what the German courts have herein done?

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by AlM on Fri Jan 6 19:37:04 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 6 15:18:34 2012.

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Did the Soviet Union offer to pay reparations for German prisoners mistreated in the Soviet Union?



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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 6 20:18:47 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 6 16:40:43 2012.

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My great-uncle worked in Wyoming and also in Louisiana. He was a U-boat lieutenant.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 6 20:33:44 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 6 20:18:47 2012.

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I can see Louisiana, but "up periscope" in Wyoming? :)

Your pal,
Otto Pilot

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 6 20:51:48 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 6 20:33:44 2012.

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I dunno, they were prison camps for officers that were more like ranches. Or they were just ranches that they sent POW's too. About 40 years ago he showed me these sketches he made while there, of landscapes and the corrals and stuff.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 6 20:56:04 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 6 20:51:48 2012.

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Well I'm sure this'll piss off Olog, but good for him. That whole "Hogan's Zeroes" thing got a bit tired. Could you just imagine the stinkeroo though if today's republicans ever got wind of that? :)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 7 15:36:47 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 6 20:56:04 2012.

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Olog Troll is a pig in hu-mon skin. posturing and running is his specialty...

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 7 18:26:48 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 7 15:36:47 2012.

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You're a communist. :)

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(896728)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 8 18:15:23 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 7 15:36:47 2012.

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If you were about substance, I might take you a bit seriously, you know.

But I guess you're all for slavery??

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 8 18:15:53 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Fred G on Fri Jan 6 20:51:48 2012.

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Anecdote=fail in light of your views.

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 8 18:17:02 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Edwards! on Fri Jan 6 19:03:36 2012.

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What are you trying to say?

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(896731)

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 8 18:18:17 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by AlM on Fri Jan 6 19:37:04 2012.

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You do recall that the USSR did side with us during WWII, right . . . and that they didn't start WWII?

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by RockParkMan on Sun Jan 8 18:28:08 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 8 18:15:23 2012.

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I am going to communicate with Larry Fendrick about this racist post.

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Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law''

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 8 18:30:15 2012, in response to Re: Germany's courts: Slavery *permitted* under ''international law'', posted by RockParkMan on Sun Jan 8 18:28:08 2012.

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What's "racist" about it? I used no epithets at all. Suggesting that someone might be for slavery is not racist. Go ahead and rat.

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