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Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 28 02:27:17 2010

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Now how dead are the Nazis? Another mask dropped.

GFP

Simulated Combat Training (I)

2010/04/28

BERLIN — For years, the Bundeswehr has been orienting its training of combat troops on the model of the Nazi Wehrmacht, as has been documented by a manual aimed at furnishing "aid for combat", published by the Army Office of the German armed forces. The case studies presented in the training manual almost exclusively refer to operations of the Wehrmacht during WWII, citing numerous well-known Nazis as sources, including SS officer Paul Karl Schmidt ("Paul Carell") who headed the press section of the German foreign ministry until 1945. In its "guide" for the German occupation troops in Afghanistan, the German Armed Forces Military History Research Office (MGFA) makes positive reference to the Nazi military. For example, fervent anti-Semite Oskar Ritter von Niedermayer is described as representing the "good German-Afghan relations" before, during and after WWII.

Requirements of Warfare

With its manual "Simulated Combat Training", the Bundeswehr seeks to drill soldiers and recruits in accordance with the "requirements of warfare". Of the four case studies of WWII, presented to convey to the trainees an "idea of the reality of war", three are dealing with operations following the Nazi Wehrmacht's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.[1] Detlef Bald, a military historian, wrote in a recent article that this manual has been used "already for many years" in the basic training of recruits. In 2006, the Army leadership again advised instructors to use this manual "because of the combat experiences".[2]

Tough Troops

In referring to the Wehrmacht's "winter combat" against the Red Army in 1942, Bundeswehr instructors are called upon to subject their soldiers to "long-term physical and emotional stress". The "troops should become accustomed to solving combat and deployment missions lasting more than 36 hours". After all, unlike maneuvers, war operations are "open-ended", explains the Bundeswehr manual "Simulated Combat Training". The army leadership is pointing to another, in its opinion, positive effect of strenuous training — the immunization against the cruelties of war: "physically tough troops can also bear emotional stress."[3]

In Difficult Terrain

The Army Office writes also that "winter combat" in Russia has shown the importance of "systematic training under difficult, changing and diverse environmental conditions": "heat waves, cold spells, weeks of rain or a snow covered training area are the best framework for combat simulation, because it is not only important to accomplish a mission, but also to maintain human and material operational readiness." Parallels to Bundeswehr operations in Afghanistan are evident, where war is being waged under "hostile" climatic conditions in "difficult terrain".[4]

Head of the Press Section

The Army Office's sources, used to illustrate the selected historical case studies, are, for the most part, based on prominent Nazis. Among the examples, are those quoted from the book "Operation Barbarossa" about the invasion of the Soviet Union. The author, Paul Karl Schmidt ("Paul Carell"), a high-ranking SS "Obersturmbannführer" (the equivalent to lieutenant colonel) had been the head of the press section of the German Foreign Ministry up to the end of the war. It was in this function that on May 27, 1944, Schmidt proposed to Gustav Steengracht von Moyland, State Secretary in the Foreign Ministry, that the Nazis themselves create — through "discoveries of explosives in Jewish meeting halls and synagogues, of sabotage organizations, of plots to overthrow the government, attacks on the police, of large-scale foreign currency swindles directed at undermining Hungary's monetary stability" — the "motives and the justifications" for the planned deportation of Budapest's Jews to German death camps. In his book "Operation Barbarossa," published in the 1960s, Schmidt reiterated on entire operations of Nazi propaganda, that he had helped create: the lie of a "preventive war," according to which the German Wehrmacht merely preempted the Red Army's meticulously planned aggression and the allegation that Germany was the spearhead of a "family of European peoples defending themselves against Russia." German war crimes and the mass liquidation of Jews and Communists are therefore not mentioned in Schmidt/Carell's narration.[5]

No Future Without National Socialism

The Army Office also used the book "Panzer-Marsch" by Nazi officer Heinz Guderian as reference literature. As a general of the tank forces, Guderian played a significant role in all of the operations of aggression carried out by Nazi Germany, receiving the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaf Cluster in 1941, one of Nazi Germany's highest military honors, for his "successes" in the war of annihilation against the Soviet Union. As late as August 25, 1944, Guderian wrote in an order to his general staff officers: "No one can believe in victory and radiate this faith more fanatically than you (...). The Reich has no future without National Socialism. Therefore, place yourselves unconditionally at the disposal of the National Socialist Reich." According to the British secret service, Guderian remained true to the Nazi ideology even after 1945 and was engaged in neo-Nazi underground circles.[6]

Jewish Question Research Department

Like the Army Office, the Military History Research Institute (MGFA) of the German Bundeswehr also makes positive reference to prominent Nazi officers. The guide for German troops in Afghanistan published by the MGFA, explicitly praises Maj. Gen. Oskar Ritter von Niedermayer, for representing the "good German-Afghan relations" before, during and after World War II.[7] Niedermayer was a member of the Advisory Council of the "Jewish Question Research Department" of the Nazi Reich's Institute for "History of the New Germany." He was arrested by the Soviet Union in 1945 for war crimes.[8] The original author of the MGFA paper, which systematically embellishes Niedermayer's biography, is Dietrich Witzel. Before 1945, Witzel had been a member of Nazi special unit "Brandenburg", responsible for numerous war crimes and the mass murder of Jews.
[1] Heeresamt: Einsatznah ausbilden. Hilfen für den Gefechtsdienst aller Truppen. Köln (Nachdruck) 2001
[2] Detlef Bald: Bedingt einsatzbereit. "Realistische Ausbildung" der Bundeswehr oder mit der Wehrmacht in den Hindukusch. In: Detlef Bald/Hans-Günter Fröhling/Jürgen Groß (Hg.): Bundeswehr im Krieg - wie kann die Innere Führung überleben? Hamburger Beiträge zur Friedensforschung und Sicherheitspolitik, Nr. 153, Dezember 2009. Please read excerpts here.
[3], [4] Heeresamt: Einsatznah ausbilden. Hilfen für den Gefechtsdienst aller Truppen. Köln (Nachdruck) 2001
[5] see also Rezension: Wigbert Benz: Paul Carell
[6] Ernst Klee: Das Personenlexikon zum Dritten Reich. Wer war was vor und nach 1945? Frankfurt/M. 2005
[7] Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt/Bernhard Chiari (Hg.): Wegweiser zur Geschichte - Afghanistan. 3. Auflage. Paderborn u. a. 2009
[8] Ernst Klee: Das Personenlexikon zum Dritten Reich. Wer war was vor und nach 1945? Frankfurt/M. 2005



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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 13:07:38 2011, in response to Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 28 02:27:17 2010.

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Yes, it stings, don't it. Especially in light of the Bundeswehr becoming all-volunteer.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 4 13:13:49 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 13:07:38 2011.

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Und ein happy blitzkrieg day to you und your little republican friends too!


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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jul 4 16:17:19 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 4 13:13:49 2011.

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Also note OLOG replied to his own post. Suspect most OTChatters just ignore him.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 16:50:17 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jul 4 16:17:19 2011.

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Headlines too scary?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 4 17:30:20 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jul 4 16:17:19 2011.

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How else would an American celebrate the fourth? :)

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by JohnL on Mon Jul 4 18:39:14 2011, in response to Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 28 02:27:17 2010.

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Looking past your psychological conditions, ask yourself whether the Wehrmacht had an effective training manual. If the answer is “yes”, then I’m not surprised that it has been plagiarized.

I would agree that some of the references to historical figures from the Nazi era could have been deleted, but that doesn’t change the basic premise of the manual.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by AlM on Mon Jul 4 18:47:32 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by JohnL on Mon Jul 4 18:39:14 2011.

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They could have used the substance of Wehrmacht manuals without keeping the WW II references. I doubt US training manuals still talk about the best way to fight the Germans.

I suspect laziness rather than politics, but who knows. it might have been some author's way of sneaking in some kind of political point.



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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by JohnL on Mon Jul 4 18:50:44 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 4 18:47:32 2011.

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Agreed. Especially the laziness part.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 19:13:58 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by JohnL on Mon Jul 4 18:39:14 2011.

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ask yourself whether the Wehrmacht had an effective training manual

One cannot answer that without taking in all the implications. Three case scenarios are about the Nazi invasion of the USSR. (If you had read the article, you would have known that.) So they're setting themselves up for sudden attack against civilian targets.

Ask yourself why you aren't worried about such things, because of the implications, which aren't going away.

As for "psychological conditions", show me your qualifications to make such statements . . . and does that mean you're passing judgment on the writers of the article as well as those who wrote the articles they cited?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by JohnL on Mon Jul 4 19:21:45 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 19:13:58 2011.

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psychological conditions.

I have no qualifications to make such statements. While I cannot diagnose you as paranoid, I do see paranoid behavior on your part.

And, no, I’m not going to nitpick the training manual apart. I don’t know enough to do so, and I rest on my assertion that good training methods stand the test of time, even at the expense of political correctness.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 19:24:51 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by JohnL on Mon Jul 4 19:21:45 2011.

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While I cannot diagnose you as paranoid, I do see paranoid behavior on your part

If you can't make such a diagnosis, how can you tell?

I’m not going to nitpick the training manual apart. I don’t know enough to do so, and I rest on my assertion that good training methods stand the test of time, even at the expense of political correctness

They did lose WWII, you know, and most of what they did had to do with sneak attacks. What's more important is the re-Nazification aspect, and that has nothing to do with being politically correct. Ideology, understand?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 4 19:27:51 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by JohnL on Mon Jul 4 19:21:45 2011.

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One shouldn't argue with Olog over these things ... he has a chest full of medals and has marched into every campaign imaginable. You should see how he singlehandedly took out Iran and made the world a whole lot safer for scrapple and the American way. :)

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jul 4 21:40:35 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 4 19:27:51 2011.

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YES!!! Olog is a legend in his own mind.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Easy on Mon Jul 4 21:41:55 2011, in response to Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 28 02:27:17 2010.

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Oops. Thought the title said Budweiser.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 21:45:57 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Easy on Mon Jul 4 21:41:55 2011.

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Maybe you were thinking of this thread.



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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 21:46:36 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Dan Lawrence on Mon Jul 4 21:40:35 2011.

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How come it is that all of ye can only muster argumentum ad hominem?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Easy on Mon Jul 4 21:50:47 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 21:45:57 2011.

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Oh well. Budweiser is an EU company now anyway.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jul 4 22:00:31 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Easy on Mon Jul 4 21:50:47 2011.

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See what you went and did? There's a German in EVERY woodpile. Don't let them get wet and definitely don't feed them after midnight. :)

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Fred G on Mon Jul 4 22:59:06 2011, in response to Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 28 02:27:17 2010.

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Well yeah, dummy. They'd have to translate anyone else's.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 5 00:22:06 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Fred G on Mon Jul 4 22:59:06 2011.

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So they're so stupid that they can't translate? I should let them know you said that.

Wonder how you'd feel about the US military using Wehrmacht and SS manuals. Bet you'd be singing a very different tune . . .

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jul 5 00:27:13 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 5 00:22:06 2011.

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Screw that ... we brought over the REAL nazis and put them to work HERE. Who do you think created our space program, and gave Curtis LeMay tips on how to nuke the Russkies? We split them with the Russkies. Everybody went home with a pet nazi.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Fred G on Tue Jul 5 09:49:01 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 5 00:22:06 2011.

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It's not a big leap of faith to think the US Military hasn't studied them. Germans have always been skilled in matters military so their info has some value. They have their flaws, too, but nobody fucks with Germany so they must have done something right.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jul 5 09:58:22 2011, in response to Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 28 02:27:17 2010.

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The whole long-standing AirLand doctrine of the US Armed Forces is based on the German WW2-era's Blitzkrieg.
So is Israel's.

But then again, that's America and what do you care?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Jul 5 22:08:07 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 4 21:46:36 2011.

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Because you are in your cave 24/7/365 so those of us who don't believe what you post (99 44/100 EU stuff) we can pick on you. The bonus is your handle proves you are a troll and you cannot deny it.

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 5 22:16:10 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Dan Lawrence on Tue Jul 5 22:08:07 2011.

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those of us who don't believe what you post

You can't deny it. I'm not writing it personally, so how is it logical to disbelieve it?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Jul 6 22:26:59 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 5 22:16:10 2011.

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Why should I believe anything posted by a Third Earth Troll?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 6 22:31:23 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Jul 6 22:26:59 2011.

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LOL, there you go with "Third Earth" versus "Middle Earth" again. Quick quiz: Mumm-Ra was the primary villian of which fictitious "Earth"?

How is it that someone posting something makes something written by someone else unbelievable? You really are making no sense. If Sellkommunism posted it, you'd believe it, then?

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Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jul 6 22:49:16 2011, in response to Re: Germany's Bundeswehr using Wehrmacht/SS reference for training manual, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 6 22:31:23 2011.

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Meanwhile ... in Germany ...



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