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| (525728) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Nov 18 10:49:37 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 10:12:02 2009. And before that they had control of Congress for 26 years, during which time the debt fell.Careful. The debt as a percentage of GDP fell. The US ran a deficit just about every year since the end of WWII. The only notable exception was the last couple of years of the Clinton Administration, when not only did the govt run a cash-on-cash surplus but it also ran a real surplus with trust funds like Social Security included. To be sure, the deficits were less than the inflation rate until 1981. So, a chart of the debt in real dollars was relatively constant between 1950 and 1980. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 11:09:10 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Nov 18 10:49:37 2009. I'm fully aware of the distinction. Most things calculated in real dollars are meaningless. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 11:09:24 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 11:09:10 2009. Excuse me, nominal dollars. |
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| (525756) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Wed Nov 18 11:58:04 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 09:30:29 2009. While you liberals and conservatives bash each other over the head blaming Bush and Obama, the bottom line is that red line on the chart is set to take off to new higher levels in the next five years.If this country does not get it's spending in line with spending cuts and higher taxes, expect economic disaster in ten years that will make the financial meltdown of 2008 look like a walk in the park on Sunday.Your grandkids will be selling pencils and apples on the streets again.The administration is talking of rigid spending cuts being planned.Let's see if they come across with them next year. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 18:15:34 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 09:30:29 2009. That's what happens whenever an out of control Democratic Congress takes over....as did in Reagan's years, and of course, shot way up after 2006 in Bush's years. And of course, the skewed biased graph, also doesn't show the huge red at the beginning under FDR's watch, a Democrat, as that wouldn't fit the artist's intention of the graph. Furthermore, where's the rest of the year under Obama? Nice try though. |
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| (525869) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 18:20:35 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 09:34:36 2009. LOL, nice try, it says the DATA is from whitehouse.gov, not the biased way the graph was drawn up. Nice try! |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 18:50:32 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 18:15:34 2009. It's already been pointed out that Reagan did not face a full Democratic Congress. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 19:39:02 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 18:20:35 2009. it says the DATA is from whitehouse.gov, not the biased way the graph was drawn up. Nice try!the graph is drawn up based on the DATA!! Why are you insisting on ignoring this? |
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| (525958) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 18 20:46:11 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Wed Nov 18 11:58:04 2009. I don't mind higher taxes, so long as it is countered by spending cuts. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:51:48 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 18 20:46:11 2009. I don't mind higher taxes, so long as it is countered by spending cuts.There will be both in the coming years. Fortunately, 98% of taxpayers will not see tax hikes. The health care bill alone cuts future spending by over $120 billion. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 18 20:53:57 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:51:48 2009. But that's based on best case scenario isn't it? |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 20:54:09 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 19:39:02 2009. I already told you why the graph drawing is biased. You can skew statistics any way you want. Again, why isn't FDR's line red too? Why does it stop at Feb? (Yes, know it's older, but lets see the current). There is plenty of bias in there. You can take the same statistics, skew them, and present them any way you want. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:55:09 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 18 20:53:57 2009. It's based on the calculations of the non-partisan CBO not on the wishes of policians. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:55:41 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:55:09 2009. of policians.politicians |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:58:16 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 20:54:09 2009. Why does it stop at Feb?You want to see the rest of the wreckage of Bush's final fiscal year. Are you a masochist? |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 20:58:52 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 20:54:09 2009. The stats are not available instantaneously.Who cares if FDR's isn't red? If you don't know why the debt went up in the 1940s, you really shouldn't comment on ANYTHING. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 21:48:50 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 20:58:52 2009. Of course I know why it went up in the 1940's, but to be truthful, and non biased, that line should also be red (but of course, the artist of the graph wants to sway the picture to look like it's always the Republicans, and that FDR line would mess that up).And we are at war now too, and have been since 9/11/01, regardless of whether the President wants to call it the "War on Terror" or "A Man Made Disaster" (or whatever nonsense phrase the president came up with). |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 18 22:00:16 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 21:48:50 2009. Show us the declaration of war ... and how DEVIOUS of the republicans to be so consistent as to trip up the plotter like that ... :) |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 22:35:22 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 18 21:48:50 2009. but of course, the artist of the graph wants to sway the picture to look like it's always the Republicans, and that FDR line would mess that upIf that's true, then what about Eisenhower, Nixon and Ford? And we are at war now too We were at war during part of the Truman years, and during much of the Johnson and Nixon years, and yet look at the graph. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Fred G on Thu Nov 19 03:51:18 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 18:50:32 2009. It's a good thing a STOP sign only has one word on it; these guys would be crashing their cars.your pal, Fred |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 04:00:20 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Fred G on Thu Nov 19 03:51:18 2009. Might as well say
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 07:25:53 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:51:48 2009. 120 Billion is a drop of piss in the bucket.You've got Social Security and Medicaire to fund along with the new Healthcare Plan.I also should include the Bush Drug Prescription plan in there.If the senators , congresspeople and the POTUS all want to spend money on these programs AND the people elect to as well by voting for these folks, then they must be paid for by ALL of us.Some statistics say that almost 50% of the people in this country pay NO taxes at all! That's ridiculous.I'm ok with taxing the wealthy more, but the middle class and poor should pay something as well.This way, they'll think twice about government spending programs before voting for them. In summation, the deficit would be reduced by taxing all of us and then new or old spending would be cut because of the political backlash of new taxes on everybody. |
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| (526115) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 07:35:28 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 20:58:16 2009. Blaming Bush for it is only a small part of the reason why.The combined efforts of the government with its CRA doctrines forcing banks to make loans to shaky borrowers and Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac backing these loans to make them look dependable resulted in Wall Street jumping on the investment vehicle of Collaterilized Debt Obligations with all of it's poison pills.The Democrats have their share of blame with CRA beginning in the Carter years, instituting it more rigorously in the Clinton years, and Barney Frank guaranteeing the loans would be ok when he had influence at Fannie Mae. As the late Sy Syms used to say "an educated consumer is our best customer".In this case, an educated person on this topic will see through the total bias liberals have in this case. |
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| (526117) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Nov 19 07:40:42 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 07:35:28 2009. Wow, a post that actually makes sense! |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 11:58:52 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 07:35:28 2009. Only 17% of subprime loans came from institutions subject to CRA. Within that 17%, only a fraction were actual CRA loans. If you can't see the problem you won't be able to solve it. |
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| (526174) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 12:00:32 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 07:25:53 2009. That's ridiculous.I'm ok with taxing the wealthy more, but the middle class and poor should pay something as well.That's leftist claptrap. |
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| (526194) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 13:11:11 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 11:58:52 2009. Post the source of your figures please so I can examine it. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 13:12:08 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 12:00:32 2009. No, it's fair tax policy.To reduce the deficit, everybody should pay. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 13:16:43 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 13:12:08 2009. The middle class has a lot of its tax money going to debt payments brought upon by the tax cuts to the rich of the 1980's and 2000s. Those that benefited from those cuts should be the ones who should pay the debt service. |
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| (526209) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 13:34:56 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 13:16:43 2009. "a lot" is what percentage and please give me the source of your information to substantiate the claim of the middle class has a lot of its tax money going to debt payments brought about by the tax cuts to the rich of the 1980's and 2000's.I don't mean to be a ball buster but I want to learn for myself. |
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| (526213) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 13:42:40 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 13:11:11 2009. Dallas Fed Click on links |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 13:56:01 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 13:34:56 2009. The rich have large holdings in Treasury securities. The poor and the middle class have little or nothing invested in them, meaning that every dollar in taxes going to service the public debt is going to people other then them while essential services that benefit them like education, health, etc go underfunded.While in theory, rich people are proportianatly paying the same % of their taxes for payments on the national debt, they are the ones who are getting it back in the form of interest plus principal. |
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| (526226) | |
Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 14:00:41 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 13:56:01 2009. put another way, the rich may have invested a large portion of their tax cuts in Treasuries meaning that they are getting back a share of their existing taxes that goes to debt service.The middle class OTOH are seeing a larger proportion of their tax dollars going to debt services instead of to things that would benefit them directly. Unfortunately for LuchAAA, the Govt doesn't pay the interest payments to the rich through "benefit cards" so he will never know about this redistribution of income. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 14:00:49 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 13:42:40 2009. Thanks for taking the time to post these articles.They were very interesting.I still say the banking system was better off before the CRA changed the rules.Even if your assertion that a very low percentage of loans were made to minorities that went bad, the rule changing led to massive amounts of loans with zero percent down and low interest rates to middle and upper class borrowers.This led to the real estate bubble with it's resulting disaster with CDO's. Years ago, you put 20% down and your income had to be verified with three years of tax returns to be able to pay it.The mortgagae remained in the bank you originated from for it's entire length.That is sound banking policy that was established in the Depression years.If you can't do the above, rent! |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 14:04:03 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 14:00:41 2009. I doubt if the truly rich would bother with a dog investment like Treasuries yielding so low.The super rich buy and sell businesses, real estate and stocks.Treasuries are short term parking lots for the wealthy people's money. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 14:15:17 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 14:00:49 2009. Even if your assertion that a very low percentage of loans were made to minorities that went bad, the rule changing led to massive amounts of loans with zero percent down and low interest rates to middle and upper class borrowers.This led to the real estate bubble with it's resulting disaster with CDO's.Well, it's the Fed's assertion not mine. As for the latter that was due to a complete lack of regulation. Regulation helps capitalism thrive because the rules are clear for all. We have seen what happens when regulation and oversight are lax. Years ago, you put 20% down and your income had to be verified with three years of tax returns to be able to pay it.The mortgagae remained in the bank you originated from for it's entire length.That is sound banking policy that was established in the Depression years.If you can't do the above, rent! They should go back to that. Securitization is insane. They say it brings better efficiencies but efficiency is useless when there is moral hazard. I could even see less then 20% if other conditions are met such as solid work history or exceptions for government backed VA loans, etc. Also high ownership rates does not necessarily boost the overall economy. Develepers have always thrived with rental properties as well. NYC is Exhibit A for the concept. The govt should reconsider the goal of universal home owneship. A better goal would be adequate housing whether it's a rental or home-owned. Living in your own ramshackle trailer is not a step up from living in a decent rental unit. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 14:29:05 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 14:15:17 2009. Great discussion with you and I learned a few things from your sources. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 14:31:04 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 14:29:05 2009. Same here. It's always a pleasure to get away from the usual mindless partisan nonsense. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 20:23:44 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 14:15:17 2009. Regulation also creates massive barriers to entry for everyone but big companies.Come up with a business idea and find out if you'll be allowed to operate or even start it. And aside from that, regulators don't ensure fairness anymore, regulators are infiltrated by the crooks who steal your dollars. See SEC. |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 20:53:44 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 20:23:44 2009. Hate to break it to ya, Sparky ... that's the least of your worries about barriers to entry any longer. Ask a banker. :( |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Nov 19 23:46:08 2009, in response to US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by Phantom909 on Tue Nov 17 22:02:57 2009. For God's sake. IMPEACH OBAMA NOW! |
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Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Nov 20 22:01:12 2009, in response to Re: US National Debt passes $12 trillion, posted by chicagomotorman on Thu Nov 19 23:46:08 2009. Only if you quit. |
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