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Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Dan on Sat May 30 16:49:23 2009

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The sunbelt will rise again. Florida pratically invented the boom and bust real etstate cycle and it's still there. Same for Texas and oil booms and busts. Meanwhile NY, NJ and CA keep raising taxes on the productive classes.
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Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?
By TODD LEWAN (AP National Writer)
From Associated Press
May 30, 2009


ORLANDO, Fla. - We first heard the term decades ago: The "Sun Belt" was just starting a run of phenomenal growth - and no wonder. It conjured a sunny state of mind as well as a balmy place on the map.

Everybody, it seemed, wanted a spot in the sun.

Industries such as aerospace, defense and oil set up shop across America's southernmost tier, capitalizing on the low involvement of labor unions and the proximity of military bases that paid handsomely, and reliably, for their products and services.

Later, San Jose, Calif., and Austin, Texas, developed into high-tech nerve centers; Houston grew into a hub for the oil industry; Nashville became a mecca for music recording and production; Charlotte, N.C., transformed itself into a center for low-cost banking and finance; and then there were the new Dixie Detroits, places like Canton, Miss., Georgetown, Ky., and Spartanburg, S.C., that began rolling out Titans, Camrys and BMWs.

Meanwhile, other warm-weather havens offered their own variants of the Sun Belt dream - as Fountains of Youth for 60-and-up duffers, as Magic Kingdoms for fun-seekers, as Cape Canaverals for middle-aged northerners looking to launch their second acts.

Air conditioning, bug spray and drainage canals that transformed marshes into golf-course subdivisions - these innovations, plus the availability of flat, low-taxed land attracted migrants from Brooklyn and Cleveland, Havana and Mexico City to locales once dismissed as too hot, too swampy, too dry, too backwater-ish.

"We Give Years to Your Life and Life to Your Years!" That was the sort of slogan you'd hear from developers pitching the promise that a new start in the Sun Belt might even, in the best of circumstances, extend one's time on Earth.

In this way, for a generation or more, the Sun Belt thrived like no other region in America - a growth so steady it felt as though the boom would never end. But now it has, replaced by a bust that has left some swaths of the region suffering as severely as anywhere in the current recession.

What brought the dark clouds to the Sun Belt, and are they here to stay?

Interviews with economists and demographers across the region, and data from The Associated Press Economic Stress Index, a month-by-month analysis of foreclosure, bankruptcy and unemployment rates in more than 3,000 U.S. counties, suggest that the answers are not all encouraging.

---

Some cities - Las Vegas, Phoenix, Fort Myers are good examples - hitched their floats to housing bubbles and got caught up in development that depended largely on, well, development itself, rather than sustainable, scalable, productive industry, economic analysts say.

It's in these places where the economic meltdown "will likely find its fullest bloom," Richard Florida, the urbanist and author, wrote recently in an Atlantic Monthly article titled "How the Crash Will Reshape America."

AP Stress Index figures, which calculate the economic impact of the recession on a scale of 1 to 100, illustrate how the downturn has played out in some of these communities:

-In Maricopa County, home to Phoenix, the Stress Index more than doubled from 5.12 at the beginning of the recession in December 2007 to 12.67 in March 2009, worsened by a foreclosure rate that nearly tripled.

-Mounting foreclosures in Las Vegas' Clark County drove up its Stress Index score from 10.5 at the start of the recession to 19.3 in March 2009.

-In Lee County, home to Fort Myers, unemployment has doubled and foreclosures have soared 75 percent since the recession began, lifting its Stress Index from 10.5 to 19.98.

The boom in parts of the Sun Belt was, Florida wrote in the Atlantic, a "giant Ponzi scheme" - a growth machine that banked on wishful thinking, on the hope that an unending stream of new arrivals would forever inject their money into construction and real estate.

But as often is the case with such schemes, there comes a day when the engine sputters, gasps, and conks out. A day when the faithful stop turning up.

In the Sun Belt's newer, shallow-rooted communities, the roadkill is most evident: Where once there were "boomburbs," there now stand "ghostdivisions." Where property-flipping was once almost a middle-class sport, joblessness and "For Sale by Owner" signs reign.

The fallout is traceable in other ways, too. Nevada - the only state with a lower proportion of native residents than Florida - has seen net migration plunge 61 percent in two years; Arizona, 55 percent.

Were it not for immigrants, many of them from Latin America, and for fertility, the Sunshine State would actually have lost population last year - an "astounding development in the Florida experience," says Bill Frey, a senior fellow and demographer at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C.

He said the end of steady movement of people into the Sun Belt is part of a broader trend of curtailed migration during this downturn. "The merry-go-round has stopped, in terms of people moving from place to place."

Does this mean we've witnessed the Rise and Fall of the Sun Belt? Will those who swept into these Miracle-Gro states get swept out just as quickly, leaving behind a sprawl of hollow houses, cul-de-sac moonscapes and mosquito-infested pools - the stucco ghettos of the 21st century?

Or will the latest downturn merely force the Sun Belt to reinvent itself again?

---

The housing bubble in many places revealed an obsolescent model of economic life, in which cheap real estate encouraged low-density sprawl and created a work force "stuck in place, anchored by houses that cannot be profitably sold," Florida wrote in his March article.

These places, he says, include older, factory towns across the northern Rust Belt but also countless communities in the Sun Belt whose prosperity was built on "fictitious wealth."

What to do? Scrap policies that encourage homebuying, he suggests, and give incentives to more mobile renters who can go where the jobs are.

In the digital age, he says, industries will likely cluster in "mega-regions" of multiple cities and their surrounding suburban rings (e.g., the Boston-New York-Washington corridor). These areas will surge, lifted by the brainpower of educated professionals and creative thinkers that turn out "products and services faster than talented people in other places can."

In short: Those that can draw talented, young people with high-quality, higher education will reap the spoils.

There is some evidence to suggest an imbalance in American educational achievement across regions. According to research by two Harvard economists, Edward Glaeser and Christopher Berry, educational attainment is no longer as evenly spread across America as it was in the '70s.

Places such as San Francisco, Boston and Seattle now turn out two to three times the college graduates of, say, Akron or Buffalo. When examining postgraduate achievement, the researchers found even greater disparities.

If locales that boast premium universities will be able to more quickly pick themselves off the mat, a question arises. In the Sun Belt's "sand cities," their expansion now halted, where will the tax money come from to pay for college upgrades?

Parts of Arizona, Nevada and the Los Angeles exurb of Riverside overbuilt and overstretched, said Anthony Sanders, a professor of finance and economics at Arizona State University.

Like Looney Toons characters who, suspended in mid-air, look down to behold they've run off a cliff, officials are scrambling to reverse course - either by scrapping government services they'd promised or, at the very least, by hiking taxes to pay for services created in expectation of bigger suburbs, exurbs.

Phoenix is in this fix. Shocked by a 33 percent plunge in home values between October 2007 and October 2008 alone, the city is running a $200 million budget deficit, a shortfall that's only expected to grow. (It has petitioned the federal government for funds.)

California has an even wider hole in its battered canoe.

That state "went on a spending spree that was incredible," said Sanders. Now, at a time when many resident retirees are in no mood, or shape, for tax increases, "they're having to raise taxes or cut back services, both of which are making moving to California a lot less desirable than it has been in previous decades."

Other Sun Belt states are making similar "mistakes," Sanders said, adding: "Unless we lower the tax burden, making it simpler for businesses to do more operations, and freeing up the ability to attract workers, the economy here is not going to come back."

The challenges don't end there.

Even before the Crash of '08, the Sun Belt was being buffeted by outmigration of factory jobs abroad. In the Carolinas, for example, industries that linked up the economy, society and culture for more than a century - furniture making, tobacco and textiles - had been gutted by a decade of decline.

And although the overall expansion of the Sun Belt's economy has been dramatic, the distribution of the region's prosperity has been uneven; of the 25 metropolitan areas with the lowest per capita income in 1990, 23 were in the Sun Belt.

That has to change, said Warren Brown, a demographer at the University of Georgia, although he noted that the Sun Belt's unbridled growth in the '80s and '90s was "unsustainable, bound to cool off," and not just because of bursting housing or migration bubbles.

The limits of natural resources were poised to put the brakes on development in the Land of Sunny Dreams anyway, he said. Two biggies: oil and water.

"Long before we run out of land, we'll be running out of water," he said. "Water is a major issue right now."

---

Doomsaying pundits have played the Sun Belt dirge before.

In 1981, for example, Time magazine declared Florida, a "Paradise Lost." The state then embarked on an epic boom, in which the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach corridor ballooned into the seventh-largest metro area in America.

Granted, today's news from the Sunshine State is hardly cheery: It ranks near the top in foreclosures and near the bottom in high-school graduation rates. There's a water crisis, an insurance crisis, a budget crisis.

So why do some experts caution that talk of Florida's demise - and the Sun Belt's - is exaggerated?

Among other things, Frey, the Brookings demographer, notes that outmigration from metro Miami actually fell last year, and in years to come "we're going to have large numbers of immigrants in the United States who are going to help us in all kinds of ways," he says.

Stan Smith, a professor of economics and director of the Bureau of Economic and Business Research at the University of Florida, says tourism, the "momentum" of decades of population growth, and already extensive networks of personal connections will again draw more migrants to Florida.

Frozen credit won't last, he says. Real estate price declines - as much as 70 percent in some Sun Belt counties - will encourage buyers. And with home heating costs in the "Frost Belt" only expected to rise, Smith says, the attraction of warm weather to retiring Baby Boomers can't be overestimated.

Florida is one of only nine states without an income tax. Couple that with the fact that its taxes on corporations and financial transactions have many exemptions, he says, and "the effects of the positive factors will continue to outweigh the negative."

Recovery will take time, though, and few economists see any significant growth in the Sun Belt before 2010. Steve Malanga, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute in New York City, agrees that states that have piled up surplus housing "are not going to solve it in this budget cycle or the next budget cycle. It's going to be with them for five, six, seven years, no doubt about it."

And yet, to say all areas across the Sun Belt are in for long-term decline is simplistic, he says. Scanning the most recent employment maps put out by the Bureau of Labor Statistics reveals "a 'belt' in the middle of the country - Texas is part of it - that is doing quite well." (The AP Stress Map backs up that finding, revealing a swath of comparatively unscathed counties starting in North Dakota, stretching through South Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas and ending in Oklahoma and Texas.)

Out of the nation's 100 fastest-growing counties, the majority were in Texas (19), Georgia (14), North Carolina (11) or Utah (nine), according to U.S. Census figures last year. Raleigh-Cary, N.C., and Austin-Round Rock, Texas, were the nation's fastest-growing metro areas, registering growth rates of 4.3 percent and 3.8 percent, respectively. Both high-tech centers, the two metros are also sites of major college campuses that helped cushion them.

Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston registered the biggest numerical gains, the census figures show. Phoenix and Atlanta ranked third and fourth in growth, respectively, followed by Los Angeles, despite the housing slump.

"Obviously, the best situation is a state that hasn't had a residential meltdown, still has a low-cost advantage, and has a weather advantage," Malanga says. High-tax states, such as California, are going to take longer to rebound.

And yet, Sun Belt states will have to offer more than tax incentives to reel in companies in the new, global economy, says Keith Schwer, executive director of the Center for Business and Economic Research at the University of Nevada.

Quality health care, quality recreation, quality education - companies and individuals consider the caliber of amenities before relocating. Cosmetic fixes don't help, he says. "You can't hide your warts."

Does all of this mean the Sun Belt will have to reinvent itself to grow again?

Rethink may be a better term.

As an example, Caron St. John, director of the Spiro Institute for Entrepreneurship at Clemson University in South Carolina, says Sun Belt states now rationing funds ought to consider returning to "First Principles" - that is, channeling what little money they have toward elementary and high schools rather than higher education.

"Elementary and high school children - we can't scar their lives because of a budget crisis. That has to be the first priority."

The question is whether the Sun Belt will show the rest of the nation how to retool schools, save water and energy, and better plan its suburbs and exurbs in an era of less.

"By necessity, we're already being forced to address these issues," says Schwer, of the University of Nevada. "This crisis is an opportunity, more than anything else, to reset things, to put some balance back into our lives."

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat May 30 17:00:57 2009, in response to Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Dan on Sat May 30 16:49:23 2009.

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"Sunbelt" is simply a geographical euphinisum. As places like Nevada/Arizona/Texas/Florida age, they will increasingly face the same issues. CA is probably hopeless thou, I agree. NY could be turned around if Guliani runs for governer.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat May 30 18:37:28 2009, in response to Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Dan on Sat May 30 16:49:23 2009.

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"The sunbelt will rise again. Florida pratically invented the boom and bust real etstate cycle and it's still there. Same for Texas and oil booms and busts. Meanwhile NY, NJ and CA keep raising taxes on the productive classes."

Don't even bother reading the AP. Your opinion is right.

I travel the state, and I look at all the fancy hotels and the towns and take photos. All of the buildings were built and towns founded in the roaring 20's. The real estate appreciation was said to last forever. It busted in 29.
I go downtown and the beaches, and i look at all the new condo towers and infill. The people who bought those were told the prices would go up forever. It busted in '09.
Would you believe the land values were even the same both times?
History repeats, you keep raising your taxes a few thousand dollars a year, and while our state's getting stupid, people from Europe to New York come to the South. Factories move to the south.

Anybody who says the sunbelt is done, eitehr doesn't mind paying high taxes, have no concept of money and how many flee down here. Because you stop coming, property values will still drop, and the only people fleeing more than northerners are BRITS, and I like the brits. Or they're from 1866 and were wrong then.

Sorry. The article isn't actually too bad. It's just too many investors. More people bought houses and condos than people who actually lived in them.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat May 30 18:39:24 2009, in response to Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Dan on Sat May 30 16:49:23 2009.

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The Sun Belt experiences twilight every day. It's not on the Arctic Circle, after all . . .

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat May 30 18:56:09 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat May 30 17:00:57 2009.

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Giuliani though has too many issues of dishonesty to win.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sat May 30 19:01:21 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat May 30 18:37:28 2009.

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Florida is a shithole. It's too f'in hot and your primary industry is estate sales from all of the people that move there to die. You attract a bunch of rich people that buy big houses so that they can move there to escape taxes, yet live half the year and spend most of their money in places like LA and NYC leaving you with nothing for your trouble. It only works when real estate is cheap because you have no jobs that pay money and if you did you wouldn't have anybody to fill them because your schools and universities are substandard.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 19:16:18 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 19:01:21 2009.

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Tourism is the primary industry. Not that many people die down here. Husbands usually die first, and the women go right back to NY, Boston, or Canada. So the wives die up north.

The people who move down here are not that rich. Just middle class who didn't shit and piss their money away.

Yes, it's too hot, but not a shithole. We have the nicest beaches in Pinellas, and Sarasota counties, while animal savage beasts destroy Rockaway.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sat May 30 19:56:35 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 19:16:18 2009.

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It's unlivable IMO. The beaches are nice, but I'm not a beach person so that doesn't mean anything to me. When the real estate market recovers you're getting the hell out of there, right?

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 20:03:15 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 19:56:35 2009.

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I'm a hardcore New Yorker though. I'm so used to the lifestyle up north. Wake up, take a walk in Flushing Meadows Park, or walk to the gym. I miss the NY lifestyle.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Changes week to week. I've been looking into opening a Pizza Patron down here. Someone just signed to open 12 in Miami, and I don't want to miss out. There's a largely Mexican shopping center right by my house, with a store available. The key to a franchise is getting in on the ground floor.

I will have to sell this house, even if I stay in Florida. It's too big for me.



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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sat May 30 20:09:56 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 20:03:15 2009.

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They seem like a good franchise from what you've said although the franchise restaurant business is for the most part buying yourself a job. You don't usually get rich off it, but you can make a decent living.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 20:23:20 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 20:09:56 2009.

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You are so right. It's really rough. But in the long run, it's better than letting money sit in a bank. Especially these days. Pizza Patron keeps growing, and is affordable. Costs about $100,000 down, total $190,000 to open one.

Yes, it's buying yourself a job. Although many Dunkin Donuts owners have three to six locations and just bounce around from each store all day. Not sure about the average Patron owner, but the owner of Jacksonville is never there.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sat May 30 20:31:20 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 20:23:20 2009.

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If I were you I would invest my money and go get a nice, easy job like train operator where you can just kick it all day.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 21:58:31 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 20:31:20 2009.

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Problem is, "where" to invest?

Train Operator is tougher than you might think.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sat May 30 22:05:11 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 21:58:31 2009.

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Invest in stocks and real estate. Everyone says to buy low and sell high, but they do the opposite when investing. People tend to buy more stocks and real estate during booms instead of when prices are low like they are now.

But in the short term, maybe nothing. No one is predicting a major uptick anytime soon so you can take your time.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 30 22:21:05 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 19:01:21 2009.

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I wouldn't call Florida a "shithole" at all. There are plenty of beautiful places in Florida. I don't know if I would want to live there, but it's far from a "shithole". There's a reason so many people come there to visit or live. The weather is great (aside from perhaps July and August, but the weather sucks in NY in January and February, so almost everywhere has a couple crappy months - Except for Southern California, lol), there are great beaches, etc.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 30 22:22:04 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 19:56:35 2009.

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Unlivable? Why?

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sat May 30 22:28:11 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 30 22:21:05 2009.

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The reason that people live there is cheap housing. And it's too hot there in every month except Nov-Feb. Even when it's only 80F it feels like 100 because of the humidity. I know that you can get use to it, but people can get used to anything. That doesn't make it desirable.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 22:29:00 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 22:28:11 2009.

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Well, Tampa has a better climate than you describe.



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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 22:31:03 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 22:29:00 2009.

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Actually, I'd rather be in Tampa when it's 91, compared to Manhattan or Queens.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 22:37:11 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 22:05:11 2009.

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I know someone who bought stock(I think BofA) and made a nice chunk of money. But I don't know shit about stocks so I won't bother. Plus, Obama is going to taxes on stock winnings.

Most don't think the Florida market is going to totally recover.

I know people who bought a home for $250,000 in 2004, and it's now worth about $200,000. Was worth $300,000. My neighbor is selling a 3,000 sq.ft home for $170,000.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 30 22:38:04 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 22:28:11 2009.

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I don't agree..... Florida has a lot more to offer than many other "hot" states. People don't just move there "for the cheap housing". There are plenty states with "cheap housing"....far inferior states.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 22:41:31 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 30 22:38:04 2009.

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Yup. And the humidity here is not as bad as August in NY.


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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sat May 30 22:57:37 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 30 22:38:04 2009.

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I guess that most people would agree with you, but that's not how I see it. Florida is in my bottom 10 as far as places that I'd want to live.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 30 23:01:31 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 22:37:11 2009.

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Obama is going to taxes on stock winnings.

They have those already. They're called capital gains taxes, it's a form of income tax.

Anyway, I'd rather they had more capital gains taxes and fewer corporate income taxes. Quite the radical left view isn't it?

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 23:06:15 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 30 23:01:31 2009.

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I know. And he's raising it. That's one reason why I won't put more money in the stock market.

How much are you going to invest in the market when Obama raises the gains tax? Raising the tax won't stimulate more investment in the market.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 00:43:48 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 23:06:15 2009.

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That's a stupid question. Still, I am opposed to a hike in the capital gains tax unless they also lower the tax on corporate profits (which they of course won't).

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 00:46:51 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 00:43:48 2009.

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You never answer a question. Just respond with a wisecrack or another question.



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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 00:56:34 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 00:46:51 2009.

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Of course I answer questions. Just not stupid ones.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 01:00:23 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 00:56:34 2009.

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There was nothing stupid about it.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 01:15:13 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 01:00:23 2009.

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It was a stupid question. What do my investment activities have to do with this discussion? Am I such a large investor that my activities have a profound effect on the economy?

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 01:25:09 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 01:15:13 2009.

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Well. At least you'll finish your argument with two stupid questions.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 01:30:10 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 01:25:09 2009.

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Those are rhetorical questions. Yours wasn't.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 01:39:59 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 01:30:10 2009.

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You don't have to be a big investor, or have a "profound impact" on the economy, to have an opinion(or concerns) about raises in the gains tax.



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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by SMAZ on Sun May 31 01:59:35 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 23:06:15 2009.

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The capital gains tax is going to revert to the pre-2001 levels only for the highest income people. They will stay the same for everyone else.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun May 31 02:18:38 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sat May 30 19:01:21 2009.

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I sort of agree. While Florida has some nice places. I wouldn't want to live there due to the climate. It's a great place to visit though.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 02:40:25 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sun May 31 02:18:38 2009.

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While the sun is hot, the humidity is not as bad as people think.

I'd rather spend August in Tampa. New York gets brutal heatwaves. I don't think Tampa has had a 100 degree temp yet.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun May 31 14:38:06 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 20:03:15 2009.

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There's more pizza places in parts of this state than I know what to do with. And these guys are straight out of Brooklyn, and some other ones.

Everytime NY raises their taxes a thousand dollars, my eating gets better.
While it's hot, and i'm not a beach person myself, I love it. So many offices and companies closed their doors up north and moved their HQ down here. They move them to the worst locations, but they still move them. We have a lot here.

I hear Texas is getting ruined now. So many Californian Refugee's escaping and going there. Not just Nevada and Utah now.

I miss the philly lifestyle, but unless they put all the people who took over onto buses or boats, that lifestyle is gone anyway. I'm a refugee, and I enjoy my relocation.

And I thought the Sunbelt stretches from NC to AZ.
Be nice if the upper-midwesterners stopped coming make room for the Europeans.
White people sure love to destroy their nice cities and societies and then flee don't they?

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun May 31 14:40:34 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 30 22:38:04 2009.

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Other states have FAR cheaper housing than FL.

If you mean the price of a house, there's the ghettos of OH and MI. I can't belive the price of a house there. But they're all antiques in horrible area's.

But there's closer states that are cheaper. It's not the sale price, but taxes and insurance and other costs.
Unless Rubio gets into a higher office.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun May 31 14:42:34 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 02:40:25 2009.

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It's impossible for Tampa Bay to hit 100 degrees real temperature.
Ignoring a seabreeze, the Dew Point is so high, that the moist air forbids it from reaching 100 degrees.

You know what's hot? Central FL like Orlando. I always feel an OBSCENE difference when I get there in the summer. And the temps are always a lot higher too. Mid to upper 90's.

I'll take the moist heat that feels like you're soaked than the slightly drier oven heat.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun May 31 14:50:06 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat May 30 23:06:15 2009.

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Money is global.
I've seen markets crash because they started talking about making or raising a tax on something 10 years down the road.

IMO, the US has the worst taxing system when it comes to investments. I perfer not to even invest in it NOW!

The tax rates really do matter. that's why they all went to London and Dubai.
While it sounds funny that someone would go to London for cheaper taxes, they give preferential treatment to foreigners. That's why the arabs are buying all the houses.

People forget that EVERYONE is invested. We all "have skin in the game".
401k. pensions. employee stock purchase plans. And they get taxed. Especially if they decide to tax your 401k's yearly. Cuz you know, not being taxed is like stealing!

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun May 31 15:18:15 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 01:39:59 2009.

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And I've made my opinion known. You've chosen to ignore it and instead ask bullshit questions because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived notions.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 16:37:33 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun May 31 14:42:34 2009.

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That's why I can't understand why so many people want to live in Orlando. Makes no sense.

Sure, Tampa/St. Pete can be humid at times, but not like NYC in August.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 16:40:14 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by SMAZ on Sun May 31 01:59:35 2009.

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Ok.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sun May 31 18:15:24 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 02:40:25 2009.

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The high temperature is nearly irrelevant. San Francisco has hit 111F, yet with it's average 12 days over 80F per year and 69F average high in August, no one would say that it's hotter than Tampa. SF weather is nearly perfect IMO, although a few more hot days would be acceptable.

New York can be hot and miserable, but Tampa is much hotter on average. Plus now that you're acclimated to hell on earth, NYC won't seem nearly as hot when you visit.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 18:20:21 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sun May 31 18:15:24 2009.

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Tampa is not hell on earth. You're thinking of Houston.

When I'm in NY in August, I feel less used to the heat, b/c it feels worse than being in Tampa. In NY, you have all those cars, street gratings, constant contruction, window A/C's etc..........

That's why I like to be in Tampa in August, instead of NYC.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sun May 31 18:24:25 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 18:20:21 2009.

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I haven't been to Houston, but I have heard that it's bad. Texas is another state that I don't really care for.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by shiznit1987 on Sun May 31 18:24:29 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun May 31 14:38:06 2009.

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Florida is only a couple decades away from turning into a giant Los Angeles. Yeah, the taxes may stay (somewhat) low, but the crime and decay will follow. Ever seen parts of Miami? OMG!

As for the "fleeing" comment, eventually, there will be nowhere to "flee" to. Then what?





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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sun May 31 18:27:09 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by shiznit1987 on Sun May 31 18:24:29 2009.

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Many more smart and creative people would need to move to Florida before it became even a small Los Angeles.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 18:28:34 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by Easy on Sun May 31 18:27:09 2009.

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Yeah. Because people from California really know how to run a state.

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Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?

Posted by Easy on Sun May 31 18:34:16 2009, in response to Re: Has twilight come to the Sun Belt?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun May 31 18:28:34 2009.

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Yes they do, but California doesn't control the border. So much of our tax money goes to people that aren't citizens or even here legally. Any other state would be in much worse shape if they had to deal with the same issues.

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