Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(

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Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 6 07:56:49 2008 edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Rules limiting lure of wild Outdoor camp operators say common sense is a casualty By RICK KARLIN, Capitol bureau Click byline for more stories by writer. First published: Sunday, July 6, 2008 Deerfoot Lodge, Speculator --Anyone who has spent time at an outdoor summer camp like this one, located in the lush south-central Adirondacks, has lots of fond memories: jumping off rope swings, swimming in a crystal-clear stream or perhaps embarking on a "solo" overnight stay in the forest to test one's self-reliance. But nowadays, those activities could be in violation of state regulations. Before swimming in a river, for example, camp counselors are supposed to use a "Wilderness Swimming Site Field Assessment Tool" to gauge the water's velocity, bottom slope and clarity. Rope swings? Forget it, at least off camp grounds, according to state Health Department regulations. Also prohibited: headfirst diving, "jumping into the water from cliffs, trees," and "water flumes." And solo sojourns, no matter how Thoreauesque, might conflict with the need for constant "visual or verbal communications capabilities between camper and counselor." When it comes to outdoor wilderness camps, the forces of nature butt up against an equally daunting power: New York's vast state bureaucracy. Some of the push for stronger regulations followed the 1998 death of an 11-year-old boy who drowned in a rain-swollen creek while attending Camp Scatico in Livingston, Columbia County. Lately, though, the operators of wilderness camps like this one have been fighting back in efforts to make the rules more realistic. "What used to be considered common sense now is codified. It's hard sometimes to codify common sense," said Ron Mackey, director of Deerfoot Lodge, one of a handful of true wilderness camps that remain in the state. Concerns of wilderness camp directors are coming to the fore as the Department of Health as well as lawmakers try to balance a true outdoor experience with safety. The challenge comes amid a boom in suburban day camps, including some in shopping malls that include mini water parks and bungee-like sky diving simulations, as well as sports like soccer and basketball. "Tech has taken over," remarked Kris Hansen, who operates the coed Camp Woodsmoke on Lake Placid, which also emphasizes wilderness travel and outdoor activities. Because they are not sleep-over camps, suburban and urban day camps escape many of the regulations that apply to their rustic counterparts. "New York camps are the safest, best-regulated camps in the world -- provided they are outdoors and multipurpose," said Gene DeSantis, an Albany lobbyist for New York State Camp Directors Association. The challenges facing Deerfoot are typical. While described as a nondenominational Christian boys camp with morning Bible periods, Deerfoot's most obvious characteristic is its ruggedness. It's a proud throwback to camping circa 1929, when it was established. There's no electricity except for a generator that powers the dining hall and few other log buildings. Most kids sleep in cabins with gas lamps -- except for those aged 14 to 16, who get to stay in tepees, which Mackey concedes can be a bit leaky in heavy rains. Cell phones, computers, iPods or other electronic gadgets are forbidden. Not that kids seems to mind. Peter Gardner, 11, of North Carolina, who was returning with a group of fellow campers from an overnight trip in which they backpacked 90 minutes to a campsite, happily described the experience of wading into a mucky wilderness lake. "We sunk into the mud about this far," he said, holding his hands about 6 inches apart and with a big grin. During their two-week stays, campers backpack and ascend the High Peaks, canoe along the Fulton Chain of Lakes and navigate off-trail with map and compass. When not in the backcountry, they sail, swim, play tetherball and learn about archery, riflery and building wooden canoes. Despite the activities, Mackey of Averill Park says the camp is relatively unstructured by current standards. As a result, state inspectors are sometimes surprised to find the entire day isn't preprogrammed. It's an example of how the state has over the years imposed the same kind of standards seen in public schools. Dispensing any medicine, even an aspirin or cough drop, requires a doctor's note, said Mackey. The camp now has parents provide presigned permission slips. Additionally, camps face restrictions on how many youngsters they can bring to certain wilderness areas, due to group size limits imposed by the state Department of Environmental Conservation. It's a sound idea to protect the ecosystem, but it means additional van trips and more, albeit smaller, groups in the woods. "You essentially have to charge more because your fixed costs are the same," said Steve Hammonds, director of the Curtis S. Read Scout Reservation in Brant Lake, where Boy Scouts participate in weeklong wilderness treks through the Adirondacks. Camp operators like Mackey, Hansen and Hammonds stress that they aren't looking to do away with rules. "Every year there are more regulations, but it's all for the safety of the campers," said Sara Disney, financial director for camp Pok-O-MacCready in Willsboro near Lake Champlain. And the Health Department, which regulates camps where there is swimming, is working to streamline things. "We have been in discussions about possible alternatives that will allow campers to have a more enhanced experience while still protecting their health and safety, said Health Department spokesman Jeffrey Hammond. Still, the list of possible regulatory bear traps seems to grow each year, even if they are beyond the Health Department's purview. For instance, noted Chuck Gieser of Delmar, Deerfoot's retired director who remains active in the camping scene, lots of youngsters today take medication for conditions like asthma or attention deficit disorder. He wonders whether someday a nurse may have to accompany them on a wilderness trip, noting that in schools, nurses give out such drugs. He also wonders about labor regulations that prevent some teens from running dishwashers or lawn mowers, part of the routine in some sleep-away camps. Gieser fears the spontaneity and self-reliance that comes with wilderness adventures like canoe trips could someday be watered down by regulations. "How do you build self-confidence in people today by holding their hands?" he asked. Rick Karlin can be reached at 454-5758 or by e-mail at rkarlin@timesunion.com.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by Fred G* on Sun Jul 6 08:49:40 2008, in response to Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 6 07:56:49 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Let's have more lawsuits and just get rid of summer camp. your pal, Fred
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sun Jul 6 09:01:25 2008, in response to Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 6 07:56:49 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And we WONDER why our kid's jobs are off to China. :( HOVERCRAFT, cocooning parents, screwing up their kids to have no future. Gotta laugh over the "boomer blame" thing here, even if "Gen X" are the actual parents. Yeah, most parents of MY age ended up being SO stupid as to feed Rush Limbaugh. But "OUR" mistake was leaving kids to fend for themselves, get a grip on reality and be able to ask us if it as "for real." I find it amusing myself at the cluelessness of parents of my OWN age ... but then again ALSO understand that if parents and their kids actually got along, they'd NEVER phucking leave the house. HEH. The most SERIOUS damage there is out there though is "helicopter parents" and the constant indulgance of their offspring which has largely resulted in "Rush Limbaugh hynoptic ADD pills" and all that's come from it. DRUG your children, and what did you expect?! :( Sometimes kids NEED to break a bone, fall down, get hurt, feel up a fellow 12 year old and play doctor, and understand that the cardboard BOX that the "big parent toy" came in is FAR more fun than the toy that came in it to CREATIVE kids. Of ALL the things that have pissed me off in the past 40 years is that KIDS are NEVER allowed to be KIDS. And if anyone LETS them be themselves, scroo the "helicopter parents" ... the FEDS will come after anyone who even has the slightest CHANCE of having some damned fun growing up. :( GHODS I'm glad I grew up when I did ... cops that would BEAT your ass for being a "moderator", conductors which would LITERALLY throw yur sorry ass off the train for being a wiseass and screwing with the equipment, parents that KICKED YOUR ASS if you did something stupid, and a far more general acceptance of those who would stop, talk to kids, TEACH them something, AMAZE them with "woah! Neat TRICK, dad!" and so many other lackings in our culture which have turned "our kids" into droids. :( We're TOO damned accomodating of the weakest amongst us, and while I have genuine sympathy for the "impaired," I still have a MAJOR issue with society's need to deny all others THEIR propers just because some people are "injured" and want to take it out on everybody else. I hate to sound "insensitive" here, but perhaps SOME kids should have a "special camp" to cater to their needs, and not ruin it for others. But THESE rules are ... well ... SHAME! BANANA! Heh. Sometimes "progressive" (note LACK of "liberal," have explained it before) ideas are just plain stupid. And what happened HERE is PROFF! I'm all FOR "special ed" and "short bus" ... hell, if it weren't for THAT magic duo, republicans would have gone the way of the "Know nothing party" ... (grin) Seriously though, these "Gen X offspring" are just SO ~~screwed~~ "challenged." And it just ain't right. Kids should be ALLOWED to be kids, at least until they hit 30. And if they choose to "act out" and "be obnoxious," then a good old 1950's police beating (WHATEVER your malfunction is!) would have even discouraged Geraldo Rivera from acting out. :)
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sun Jul 6 09:29:39 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by Fred G on Sun Jul 6 08:49:40 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d No flags! No fun! :( After reading that, I am SO glad that I'm not having to grow up now under a republican regime that bears no resemblance WHATSOEVER to the republican regime I grew up under, and actually had some FAITH in. Honkd me off again that today's kids are SO shafted, and their parents are "SO ... like ... whatever." SERIOUSLY ... no WONDER we're all scrood. =(
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by Dan* on Sun Jul 6 19:59:21 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 6 09:29:39 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'm surprised that there are any camps left today between changing tastes, state regulations and liability insurance costs. You couldn't make a movie like "Meatballs" either. Imagine a politically correct version of that great little comedy.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by Dan* on Sun Jul 6 20:10:05 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 6 09:01:25 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I grew up in the 1970s so I remember the end of the era you describe. In a strange way as parents got more prosperous they became more protective of their kids. That's not totally a bad thing. My parents grew up on the Lower East Side, which was a rough area. They were protective but not to the extent that today's parents are. I was riding buses alone at 12 for the very pratical reason that my orthodontist was two buses away from our house. I was allowed to travel alone on the subway when I was in high school. But I had to home by a certain time during the school year and my parents made sure I did my homework.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car* on Mon Jul 7 10:10:04 2008, in response to Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Jul 6 07:56:49 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d This is a SHAME. Note how this camp does not allow ipods, computers or texting machines..THAT is why the government wants to shut it down, they want to dumb down the kids, make them stay home with bananas and ipods up their behinds. The governmet should cut this out, or someone should liquidate the imbecils behind this crap. measure the velocity of the water in the river...shure, come here, Mr. Paterson...just hold your head under water for an hour...i'll help you...UNLESS you want to stop playing slapdick, and actually become a leader. Remember when people were so excited over this new brownfinger governor? Now we see it isn't the color of the fingers, but the quality of the person.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by Ken S.* on Mon Jul 7 10:13:42 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Jul 7 10:10:04 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Here we go again with the nutjob posts.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car* on Mon Jul 7 10:29:04 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by Ken S. on Mon Jul 7 10:13:42 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d you probably didn't read the original post, or my post. Did you just see my "name" as the post author, so you fall down with the vogue, and post some post implying i am mentally unstable... GOOD JOB!! NOT!!! SHAME.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by Ken S.* on Mon Jul 7 10:30:37 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Mon Jul 7 10:29:04 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'm talking about the fact that every post of yours seems to contain the word bananas.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by SUBWAYSURF* on Mon Jul 7 10:54:22 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by Ken S. on Mon Jul 7 10:30:37 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d AND BEHINDS.....
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by Fred G* on Mon Jul 7 11:23:09 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Jul 7 10:54:22 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Although those concepts are abstract and sound goofy, when you think outside the box a bit, they might not be so bad, Soif. your pal, Fred
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by SUBWAYSURF* on Mon Jul 7 11:31:13 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by Fred G on Mon Jul 7 11:23:09 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d 'tis true.
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Mon Jul 7 14:57:43 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by Dan on Sun Jul 6 19:59:21 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'd really rather not ... it'd end up being a "Troma production." :)
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Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Mon Jul 7 15:02:41 2008, in response to Re: Yo, Guv Dave! No flags, no fun! Something ELSE needs fixing! :(, posted by Dan on Sun Jul 6 20:10:05 2008.* edf40wrjww2msgDetailOT:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Nothing wrong with that, it's the ones that won't let their kids go play outside the house that are worrisome. Yeah, you came up right on the ratty edge of "before" and "after." Betcha you can cross the street today under your own power. :)
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