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(2040829)

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Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by TRAIN DUDE on Tue Jun 2 14:58:03 2026

It turns out that solar and wind power can be very economical to produce. That is economical AFTER you get past the initial investment is solar panels or wind turbines - bearing in mind that wind turbines are very costly to maintain and have a 20 life expectancy and both need massive tracts of land. But still so long as the sun shines or the wind blows, you get cheap electricity. But what about when the sun doesn't shine or there is no wind?

Alas, that's where the "B" word comes in. Storage batteries are needed to store power when the sun shines and the wind blows for when there is no sun or wind. In a canton in Switzerland, a hole in the ground has been excavated - a hole the size of 2 soccer fields. In it they are placing batteries that will store 2.1 gigawatts of power and are capable of providing 1.2 gigawatts of power, about as much as a nuclear power plant. Of course, the battery facility will cost several billion dollars but what the heck. Green energy is cheap.

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(2040840)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 2 18:39:01 2026, in response to Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Tue Jun 2 14:58:03 2026.

As if organic power plants don't have startup construction costs. At least solar and wind plants don't have ongoing fuel requirements.

Seems like the battery farm would be cheaper than a nuclear power plant, so what's the issue?

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(2040842)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 2 20:21:09 2026, in response to Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 2 18:39:01 2026.

Turbines are very expensive. Also, there have been over a century of technological improvements, so their costs aren't coming down any more.

Solar: no turbines, no fuel cost, capital costs still coming down steadily, intermittent.

Wind: yes turbines, no fuel cost, capital costs only coming down slowly, intermittent.

Batteries: no turbines, no fuel cost, capital costs still coming down rapidly, suitable for peak use (the opposite of intermittent).

Nuclear: yes turbines, moderate fuel cost when full life cycle is considered, capital costs might come down radically with new modular designs that allow nuclear power plants to be built in factories and not on site, steady power (maybe too steady).

Gas: yes turbines, middling fuel cost (very high cost when global warming effects are factored in), capital costs only coming down slowly, steady or adjustable power.

Oil and coal: like gas but even more expensive in all respects.

Solar + wind + batteries, with (hopefully) modular nuclear is just cheaper in all respects.

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(2040845)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Jun 2 20:38:58 2026, in response to Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by TRAIN DUDE on Tue Jun 2 14:58:03 2026.

Switzerland needs to stop being nazi's and just buy Tesla Megapacks like everyone else does. I even saw these are some Walmarts to power the stores.

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(2040846)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 2 20:53:05 2026, in response to Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 2 20:21:09 2026.

Nuclear: yes turbines, moderate fuel cost when full life cycle is considered, capital costs might come down radically with new modular designs that allow nuclear power plants to be built in factories and not on site, steady power (maybe too steady).

You forgot the cost for storing spent fuel. Storage time is infinite, so present worth of yearly storage cost makes it more expensive than construction and operating costs would indicate.

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(2040847)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 2 21:03:13 2026, in response to Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 2 20:53:05 2026.

The waste doesn’t have to be stored, it can be buried.

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(2040855)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 3 06:50:00 2026, in response to Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 2 20:53:05 2026.

You forgot the cost for storing spent fuel.

What do you think "full life cycle" means?

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(2040856)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 3 06:54:11 2026, in response to Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jun 2 21:03:13 2026.

Secure burial for 30 half lives is expensive too.

Are you aware of the clean-up costs at Hanford and Oak Ridge, where the burial was not done sufficiently securely?

I believe that the current view is that it's best to keep the stuff in secure cannisters that can be inspected periodically to make sure they are not at risk of leaking.



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(2040870)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 3 12:16:57 2026, in response to Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 3 06:54:11 2026.

That’s only because the Yucca Mountain project was cancelled.

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(2040896)

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Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind

Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 3 19:35:54 2026, in response to Re: Cheap Energy From Solar and Wind, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 3 12:16:57 2026.

Yucca Mountain did not constitute "burial." It was planned as large underground caverns.

Burial (where cannisters are surrounded by dirt, rock, or concrete) is a disaster because it is impossible to observe if the cannisters are getting damaged and/or leaking.

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