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| From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport (2019565) | |
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| (2019565) | |
From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Jul 11 15:38:02 2025 Around the time of World War I, with the Manhattan and Brooklyn docks already getting crowded, the city came up with an ambitious idea of building a new, world-class seaport on Jamaica Bay in then largely undeveloped Canarsie. Docks would line both sides of the deepened and straightened Paerdegat Basin served by rail spurs extending from the LIRR Bay Ridge line. Beyond the work on the Paerdegat, still plainly visible on maps, nothing ever happened and the idea soon faded away.Let’s assume the seaport actually got built. I believe one of two outcomes would have come to pass: 1) Good outcome - With a thriving port on Jamaica Bay the city would be a shipping powerhouse, quite unlike the actual situation in which commercial shipping has nearly vanished except for Howland Hook and a very small amount in Brooklyn. Even better, a whole industrial area may well have grown around the seaport and the city would actually have a meaningful amount of industry. It goes without saying that there long since would have been a freight tunnel across the Hudson and it would have been expanded to provide double stack clearance. And let’s not forget an expanded highway network. Most vitally, NYC would have something it desperately lacks - JOBS! 2) More realistic outcome - the port would be obsolete and largely or completely abandoned. What would have been a vast amount of space 110 years ago would be way, way less than needed for modern containerized shipping. Just look on Google Maps satellite view at a thriving container port like Savannah or Charleston and prepare to be shocked at the vast amount of landside space they occupy. Note that by the time containers came along in the 1960’s Canarsie was fully developed and it would have been a political nightmare and huge expense to demolish hundreds or even thousands of houses for port expansion. In addition, the port might be too small to handle today’s vastly larger ships. |
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| (2019568) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jul 11 17:31:27 2025, in response to From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Jul 11 15:38:02 2025. Just look on Google Maps satellite view at a thriving container port like Savannah or CharlestonAre you aware that there is a thriving container port far far closer to NYC than that? It's called the Port of New York and New Jersey. And yes, most of it is in NJ. |
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| (2019570) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Jul 11 17:33:39 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by AlM on Fri Jul 11 17:31:27 2025. New Jersey doesn’t count. To most New Yorkers it might as well be in Bhutan or Mauritania. |
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| (2019571) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jul 11 17:55:33 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Jul 11 17:33:39 2025. Yes, but you posted as if major container ports were all in distant places. |
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| (2019593) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 12 01:30:48 2025, in response to From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Jul 11 15:38:02 2025. More realistic outcome—the port would be obsolete and largely or completely abandoned. . . but you don't say why. You do know that there's a container port at Port Newark, right? Never mind the fact that one of the things that the Port Authority of New York had in its charter, a trans-Hudson rail link, never got built. Still like big government? |
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| (2019595) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport? |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jul 12 02:02:44 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 12 01:30:48 2025. A Jamaica Bay seaport probably would.be abandoned by now because it would lack the massive amounts of landside space needed for container operations and because the Paerdegat might not be large enough to handle today’s huge ships. |
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| (2019603) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 12 10:43:54 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport?, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jul 12 02:02:44 2025. Have you actually seen maps of the planned port? Had that been built, Canarsie wouldn’t have been a residential neighborhood. |
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| (2019604) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 12 10:46:01 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 12 10:43:54 2025. Also, much of the planned space for the Jamaica Bay seaport was actually put to use a port, just not a seaport. |
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| (2019611) | |
Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport? |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jul 12 13:41:56 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jul 12 10:43:54 2025. As envisioned the port would not have taken up all of Canarsie, just the western end near the Paerdegat. Most of the area would have been residential. That would have worked just fine until the advent of container shipping in the 1960’s and its requirement for vast tracks of landside space. Unless the city were able to demolish most or all of Canarsie, which would have been monumentally expensive and probably politically impossible even 60 years ago, the seaport would have been rendered obsolete. At very best it would be like the Brooklyn port in Red Hook today, seeing one or two smallish cargo ships a week if that.And this is not even to mention that the Paerdegat likely would not have been able to handle today’s mega-ships. Sadly, changed in shipping seem to have ended for good NYC’s maritime heritage, except for Howland Hook and whatever Red Hook still gets. |
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| (2019628) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Jul 12 18:21:17 2025, in response to From the Department of If Only: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Jul 11 15:38:02 2025. What a horrendous scenario that seaport proposed.Thank the lord it never happened. |
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| (2019629) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jul 12 18:48:39 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Jul 12 18:21:17 2025. What’s way more horrendous is the way New York’s once mighty shipping industry has faded away to almost nothing. |
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| (2019630) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jul 12 19:14:32 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jul 12 18:48:39 2025. Ridiculous.Many of the workers at Port Elizabeth and Port Newark live in New York. The Port of (New York and) New Jersey contributes to the NYC economy in other ways too. |
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| (2019631) | |
Re: From the Department of 1930s megaprojects: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jul 12 19:40:20 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by AlM on Sat Jul 12 19:14:32 2025. Never mind the fact that it destroyed the CNJ's main line beyond repair. |
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| (2019650) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Jul 13 14:03:22 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by AlM on Sat Jul 12 19:14:32 2025. New Jersey was realistically the only possible choice for the region’s main seaport when container shipping took over. Newark already was a significant port, under the Port Authority’s control, and most importantly had ample room for expansion unlike the Brooklyn and Manhattan docks.What’s the real issue is that the extremely parochial mindset of so many New Yorkers renders them unable/unwilling to realize that New Jersey is *right next door* and not impossibly remote. I have no idea if that ever can be changed. |
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| (2019651) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 13 14:34:15 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Jul 13 14:03:22 2025. What’s the real issue is that the extremely parochial mindset of so many New Yorkers renders them unable/unwilling to realize that New Jersey is *right next door* and not impossibly remote. I have no idea if that ever can be changed.It's only a real issue when New Yorkers (whether elected New York officials or private business people) make counterproductive economic decisions based on that mindset. Yes, that happens. But you don't make a convincing argument that it happens a lot. Consider the classic example: thousands of trucks per day could be removed from the LIE if only there were a freight yard somewhere on Long Island that could handle an entire full-length freight train of containers. Such a train could make a non-stop trip from NJ via the Selkirk Bridge without ever having to stop in Selkirk Yard. Why is there no such yard? It's nothing to do with New Jersey. The NIMBYs wouldn't accept trains coming from Brooklyn either. |
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| (2019652) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Jul 13 15:02:12 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 13 14:34:15 2025. The Brookhaven Terminal in Yaphank probably could be expanded to handle container trains, and there aren't really any adjacent residences. IDK why it's never been proposed. |
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| (2019656) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 13 16:43:45 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Jul 13 15:02:12 2025. It has been proposed. |
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| (2019666) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jul 13 21:02:11 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jul 12 18:48:39 2025. Evolution |
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| (2019668) | |
Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jul 13 21:18:08 2025, in response to Re: From the Department of Thank Goodness It Didn’t Happen: the Jamaica Bay seaport, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 13 16:43:45 2025. Lol |
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