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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 20:03:46 2018

From this weekend's WSJ Editorial page.

“As Judge Kavanaugh stands to gain the lifetime privilege of serving on the country’s highest court, he has the burden of persuasion. And that is only fair.”

—Anita Hill, Sept. 18, 2018

“Not only do women like Dr. Ford, who bravely comes forward, need to be heard, but they need to be believed.”

—Sen. Maize Hirono (D., Hawaii)

The last-minute accusation of sexual assault against Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh is an ugly spectacle by any measure. But if there is a silver lining, it is that the episode is providing an education for Americans on the new liberal standard of legal and political due process.

As Ms. Hill and Sen. Hirono aver, the Democratic standard for sexual-assault allegations is that they should be accepted as true merely for having been made. The accuser is assumed to be telling the truth because the accuser is a woman. The burden is on Mr. Kavanaugh to prove his innocence. If he cannot do so, then he is unfit to serve on the Court.

***

This turns American justice and due process upside down. The core tenet of Anglo-American law is that the burden of proof always rests with the person making the accusation. An accuser can’t doom someone’s freedom or career merely by making a charge.

The accuser has to prove the allegation in a court of law or in some other venue where the accused can challenge the facts. Otherwise we have a Jacobin system of justice in which “J’accuse” becomes the standard and anyone can be ruined on a whim or a vendetta.

Another core tenet of due process is that an accusation isn’t any more or less credible because of the gender, race, religion or ethnicity of who makes it. A woman can lie, as the Duke lacrosse players will tell you. Ms. Hirono’s standard of credibility by gender would have appalled the civil-rights campaigners of a half century ago who marched in part against Southern courts that treated the testimony of black Americans as inherently less credible than that of whites. Yet now the liberal heirs of those marchers want to impose a double standard of credibility by gender.

A third tenet of due process is the right to cross-examine an accuser. The point is to test an accuser’s facts and credibility, which is why we have an adversarial system. The denial of cross-examination is a major reason that campus panels adjudicating sexual-assault claims have become kangaroo courts.

It’s worth quoting from the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling this month in Doe v. Baum on a sexual-assault case at the University of Michigan.

“Due process requires cross-examination in circumstances like these because it is ‘the greatest legal engine ever invented’ for uncovering the truth,” wrote Judge Amul Thapar. “Not only does cross-examination allow the accused to identify inconsistencies in the other side’s story, but it also gives the fact-finder an opportunity to assess a witness’s demeanor and determine who can be trusted. So if a university is faced with competing narratives about potential misconduct, the administration must facilitate some form of cross-examination in order to satisfy due process.”

***

Consider the limited facts of Christine Blasey Ford’s accusation against Judge Kavanaugh. It concerns an event some 36 years ago that she recalls in only partial detail. She remembers the alleged assault and rooms she entered with some specificity, but not the home where it occurred. She doesn’t know how she traveled to or from the home that evening.

She told no one about the incident for 30 years until a couples therapy session with her husband. Her therapist’s notes say there were four assailants but she says there were only two. Two of the three other people she says were at the drinking party that night say they know nothing about the party or the assault, and Mr. Kavanaugh denies it categorically.

Democrats claim that even asking questions about these facts is somehow an unfair attack on her as a woman. Her lawyer is demanding that Ms. Ford testify after Mr. Kavanaugh, and that only Senators ask questions—no doubt to bar Republicans from having a female special counsel ask those questions.

We’re told Ms. Ford even wants to bar any questions about why she waited so long to recall the alleged assault and who she consulted in finally going public this year. Such a process is designed to obscure the truth, not to discover it. None of these demands should be tolerable to Senators who care about finding the truth about a serious accusation.

We don’t doubt that Ms. Ford believes what she claims. But the set of facts she currently provides wouldn’t pass even the “preponderance of evidence”—or 50.01% evidence of guilt—test that prevails today on college campuses. If this is the extent of her evidence and it is allowed to defeat a Supreme Court nominee, a charge of sexual assault will become a killer political weapon regardless of facts. And the new American standard of due process will be the presumption of guilt.

Appeared in the September 22, 2018, print edition.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 20:44:20 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 20:03:46 2018.

The hate towards women this opinion article projects shows just how I train them anti-women attitudes towards women pervade the RW.

Fifteen year old girls simply do not disclose such encounters, in fear of having what
little social contact with peers they enjoy removed by overly protective, paranoid parents...instead of seeing the boy(s) involved facing the criminality of what they have done, which is the proper and ideal outcome. It's the boys that are (criminally) misbehaving, yet it is the girl that faces punishment for something she DID NOT DO.

Until the day that American parents raise their children differently, this will continue to happen.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 20:47:30 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 20:03:46 2018.

And yeah, this isn't a "due process" thing. This is about qualification to affect the lives of millions of American citizens' lives.

Kavanaugh is NOT qualified. He harbors strong, overwhelming negatives towards a majority of our citizens.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:06:27 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 20:47:30 2018.

He harbors strong, overwhelming negatives towards a majority of our citizens.

If so, then why:

1) Did a group of more than 75 women meet at a Washington hotel on Thursday to publicly voice their support for him?

2) Did the ABA unanimously gave its highest rating to him on his nomination to SCOTUS?

By the way, four of the seven current ABA officers - including the past president and the president-elect, are women.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 21:18:35 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:06:27 2018.

Because they were conned.

Since when do I speak, or am responsible for, the ABA?

So what? Doesn't mean that misogyny is not pervasive among American males.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by AlM on Sat Sep 22 21:24:16 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:06:27 2018.

If so, then why:

1) Did a group of more than 75 women meet at a Washington hotel on Thursday to publicly voice their support for him?

That 75 women in a country of 330 million support someone says absolutely nothing about his attitudes towards women. I'm sure you could find 75 blacks who supported David Duke the last time he ran for office.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:25:10 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 21:18:35 2018.

Conned? They say most of them have known him for decades. Must be the long con, eh?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-75-women-come-defense-175345598.html

LMAO! You are priceless.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:26:02 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by AlM on Sat Sep 22 21:24:16 2018.

LMAO! You must do a lot of yoga to be able to twist yourself this way.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 22 21:26:59 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:25:10 2018.

75 women who defended K'vanaugh?

I'll bet the drinks flowed.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 22 21:29:12 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:26:02 2018.

You must do a lot of yoga

Maybe Mr. and Mrs. AlM can take their next vacation to a Vegan Costa Rican Yoga retreat!

#vegan
#vsu
#cinnamonsnail

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Sep 22 21:35:36 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by AlM on Sat Sep 22 21:24:16 2018.

Who knows 330 million women personally?

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 22 21:36:02 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Sep 22 21:35:36 2018.

lo@lm!

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Sep 22 21:36:08 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:26:02 2018.

Al is sounding like bingbong now.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 22 21:53:21 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 20:44:20 2018.

🙄🙄

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Train Dude on Sat Sep 22 21:55:45 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:26:02 2018.

Yoga? He must be trying to orally copulate himself,

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 22 22:04:33 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 20:47:30 2018.

Says WHO?!?!?!

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 22:20:46 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Sep 22 21:29:12 2018.

+1

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 22 22:20:48 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 21:18:35 2018.

Conned by WHO??

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:22:32 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:25:10 2018.

Yes. Used. Anyone that's half-conscious would want to know a whole lot more before coming forward on his behalf.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 22:23:08 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by AlM on Sat Sep 22 21:24:16 2018.

Whose opinion do you think carries more weight:

Millions of women who until a couple of weeks ago never knew Kavanaugh even existed and know nothing about the incident beyond what they read/heard on the news; or

Seventy five women who are classmates, colleagues, friends, or staffers of Kavanaugh, most of whom have known him for decades?

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 22:24:11 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:22:32 2018.

LOL! Your motto: Ready, Shoot, Aim!

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:25:46 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 22 22:20:48 2018.

The RWers. Who else?.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:28:29 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 22:23:08 2018.

Millions of women.

Because 75 is a minority in comparison. The latest polls show he is underwater on support among Americans, just like trump.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Train Dude on Sat Sep 22 22:29:44 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:25:46 2018.

If only your mother learned to swallow...….

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:30:09 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 22:24:11 2018.

Nope. You’re just another clueless hater.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:31:47 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Train Dude on Sat Sep 22 22:29:44 2018.

Hater. Misogynist.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 22:32:02 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:28:29 2018.

LOL! Seek professional help, quickly.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:36:15 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 22:32:02 2018.

For you, absolutely. Where shall I send them? I simply don't need any. You, however.....

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Sep 22 22:50:41 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:25:46 2018.

🙄 Oy!

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Fred G on Sun Sep 23 01:49:24 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by AlM on Sat Sep 22 21:24:16 2018.

Wow an entire 75

Was it this group?



“Women”. I guess some of them must be trans 😂

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Fred G on Sun Sep 23 01:58:39 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Sep 22 21:35:36 2018.

The United States has 330 million people. Of those 330 million, 75 stepped up to support Kavanaugh. In other words big fucking deal.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Fred G on Sun Sep 23 02:00:42 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 21:26:02 2018.

75 people isn’t that big a group. There was another group of 65 women who initially supported Kav but 63 of them backed away

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Sep 23 02:05:52 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Fred G on Sun Sep 23 01:58:39 2018.


The United States has 330 million people. Of those 330 million, 75 stepped up to support

but only one accused him of attempted rape.

(I do think something happened between them but they were just teens)

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Fred G on Sun Sep 23 02:12:35 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Sep 22 21:36:08 2018.

No.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Sep 23 07:12:27 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sat Sep 22 22:28:29 2018.

Wow, you need help

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by AlM on Sun Sep 23 07:48:34 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Sep 22 21:36:08 2018.

Explain.

Dave just said 75 women. He said nothing about their expertise on the subject of Judge Kavanaugh.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Sep 23 07:58:37 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by AlM on Sun Sep 23 07:48:34 2018.

lo@lm!

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:03:10 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Fred G on Sun Sep 23 01:49:24 2018.

Check underneath.😟

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:07:43 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by AlM on Sun Sep 23 07:48:34 2018.

Having seen how this is polling, it shouldn't come as a surprise that all the female following he has is 75 women nationally.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:12:42 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Sep 23 02:05:52 2018.

So you write off the trauma he caused this woman's LIFE?

Do you have any idea how many millions of young women went through episodes like that?

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:17:02 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Sep 23 07:12:27 2018.

Wrong. Kavanaugh does not have the support of the American people.

NBC poll

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by mtk52983 on Sun Sep 23 08:20:05 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:17:02 2018.

A plurality of the people oppose, but it is definitely not a majority and I am sure you will have a lot of people who will say no position versus admitting to still being in favor just because of the nature of the allegations.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:38:58 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by mtk52983 on Sun Sep 23 08:20:05 2018.

They'd be wrong. If anything, it shows disinterest, apathy. That's a problem too, but a different one. And your diminishing the allegation demonstrates misogyny, yunno.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Sep 23 11:06:58 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 20:03:46 2018.

While I do support Kavanaugh without further proof I do have problems with the editorial linked in that the whole editorial is about criminal law, not confirmation hearings. So it's apples and oranges.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Sep 23 11:14:39 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:03:10 2018.

TRANSPHOBIC STATEMENT!!!

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Sep 23 11:15:22 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Fred G on Sun Sep 23 01:49:24 2018.

Don't be such an intolerant transphobe.

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Sep 23 11:16:37 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by bingbong on Sun Sep 23 08:12:42 2018.

She is doing good in her life!

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Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Sep 23 11:46:35 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Dave on Sat Sep 22 20:03:46 2018.

My big concern is that if *I* was the investigator in charge, I would like to know why there aren't any other women coming forward? The left already painted this guy as a lecherous Predator, so you would think that there were other victims of his in high school, college, law school, and Beyond. If he truly was the sexual deviant that they are betraying him to be, common sense would just dictate that there would be more victims. But there aren't. I wonder why?

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Re: Kavanaugh—The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 23 12:23:12 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh - The Presumption of Guilt, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Sep 23 11:46:35 2018.

There are plenty of other women coming forward—on Kavanaugh's side.

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Re: Kavanaugh—The Presumption of Guilt

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Sep 23 13:36:08 2018, in response to Re: Kavanaugh—The Presumption of Guilt, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 23 12:23:12 2018.

I know. If he was a sexual predator, more would have stepped forward by now. Of course that is not stopping the Dems from trying to "persuade" others to come forward

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