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| Democracies end when they are too democratic. (1363605) | |
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Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 05:32:35 2016 Interesting writeup in the New Yorker Magazine. Pity most folks here can't read and certainly never read Plato’s Republic. But for those few who are actually literate, a rather thought-provoking piece here:http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html For the "tl;dr, herp derp" crowd ... nevermind, you'll be living it soon. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 3 06:15:07 2016, in response to Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 05:32:35 2016. Pity most folks here can't read and certainly never read Plato’s Republic. But for those few who are actually literateTypical elitist liberal claptrap. As is the "thought-provoking" screed. Those who can read, as you put it, know the difference between a republic and a democracy. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 06:41:18 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 3 06:15:07 2016. And you didn't bother. Quelle surprise. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Tue May 3 08:58:45 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 3 06:15:07 2016. Like that idiot ever read it, himself. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 09:50:46 2016, in response to Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 05:32:35 2016. Well yeah, the article also mentions the way Obama rolled over his opposition, both Democrat and Republican in 2008 on enthusiasm and "hope and change." and such vague promises that amounted to rolling the oceans back and having "smart" this and "smart" that.People always doubt democracy when things aren't going their way. An essential problem of democracy is that 50% of the votes plus one (theoretically) gives one side its way and the 50% minus one can go home and lick their wounds. (Fortunately we don't have Castro-style democracy where even minor local officials of the Batista government faced firing squads). Same as when the left holds mass rallies its "Democracy in Action" to the left, but when the Tea Party did the same thing Democrats darkly hinted about the Ku Klux Klan... And the wheel keeps on turning... |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 3 14:39:25 2016, in response to Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 05:32:35 2016. I've never read Plato's Republic. Does it really describe what the article says? |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue May 3 14:44:05 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 06:41:18 2016. LOL...Just because one can understand Words,doesn't mean they COMPREHEND WHAT THEYVE READ IN CONTENT. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 14:57:21 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by 3-9 on Tue May 3 14:39:25 2016. All I know is that he was very frustrated, having only Platonic relationships.Except maybe Plato in Rebel Without a Cause. Except he seemed frustrated too. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by bingbong on Tue May 3 15:02:42 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 14:57:21 2016. Everyone in the fifties was, in one way or another, frustrated. And they want to bring that back? Why? |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 3 15:12:45 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 14:57:21 2016. If he wants to learn abut frustration, he should play smartphone games. :-) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 15:33:50 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by bingbong on Tue May 3 15:02:42 2016. Because they didn't live in the '50s and it looks like fun on TV. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by bingbong on Tue May 3 15:40:37 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 15:33:50 2016. It wasn't. Not a all. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue May 3 16:10:50 2016, in response to Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 05:32:35 2016. One can only hope that the Constitutional safeguards our Founding Fathers had the presence of mind to create, function as they intended, should disaster strike, and Donald Trump gets elected President.Just the thought of that orange buffoon being anywhere near the nuclear football makes me ill...as it should every thinking American... |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 16:15:20 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by bingbong on Tue May 3 15:40:37 2016. I can't ague with that, though our reasons may differ. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 3 16:34:39 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by 3-9 on Tue May 3 14:39:25 2016. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Notice that he doesn't even link the work when mentioning it. (The title here comes from Book VIII, and the contents are much plagiarized by Marx, although Marx concludes that instead of a democracy being established when the underclass rebels, a socialistic tyranny ensues.) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 18:19:00 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic, posted by Edwards! on Tue May 3 14:44:05 2016. And some can't even read them to begin with. :) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 18:23:44 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 09:50:46 2016. Exactly! Thanks for being one of the few, the chosen, the "I get it." :) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 18:35:27 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue May 3 16:10:50 2016. IAWTP |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 18:39:03 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue May 3 16:10:50 2016. The good news is that THEY read it too. :) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 19:54:50 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 09:50:46 2016. So, kudos to you for being able to read through it once and then make comments that get to the heart of what he is writing about. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 19:57:18 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 09:50:46 2016. did not include in my first post:I read the article late last night, I want to read it again - have many thoughts about it that I want to try and sort out. Great that you read it through once, and were able to make very relevent comments on it. :) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 20:01:04 2016, in response to Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 05:32:35 2016. I read the article late last night, I want to read it again - have various different thoughts about it that I want to try and sort out. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 3 20:19:39 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SLRT on Tue May 3 16:15:20 2016. The prom dances in the 50's were awesome. That's how it was. The movies, the TV and Ike say so.Actual real TV footage from "National Bandstand" seen below from the Rydell HS Class of '59: Amazingly, back then, the Puerto Ricans were allowed to win. I think Rydell HS is located somewhere between Bethpage and Hicksville, LI. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 20:21:49 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 19:57:18 2016. The most salient point is that the Founding Fathers were very careful to construct our form of government as a Republic, rather than repeat the mistakes of the past. They clearly understood Plato's point, and even if we were to actually end up in a Trumpian Dystopia, he would be subject to all of the checks and balances designed into our "democracy."And if Plato wasn't enough guidance, there's also the words (often incorrectly attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville) of Alexander Fraser Tytler, also known as Lord Woodhouselee, a Scottish advocate, judge, writer and historian. Tytler believed that governments and democracy go through stages that last 200 years: A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage. The Union will stand because of its clever design even though the likelihood of that Trumpian Dystopia is quite the long shot. :) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 20:23:57 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 20:01:04 2016. No worries. I rarely bother posting anything "chewy" here given the tl;dr crowd, but thought that might at least get Olog to pook out of his hole. Mission accomplished. :) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 20:36:44 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 20:21:49 2016. Thanks so much for your analysis!the system of Checks and Balances were one of the things that occurred to me on a gut level when I was reading this, and when I think the unthinkable: what if there was a toupee in the oval office? I thought that some of the examples given in his summary of how "too much democracy" exists* not only in politics but in all other areas of life were a bit overstated or simplified as contributions; and warrented more thought.... but then again you think maybe they are if you look at peripheral or background issues of those examples. *that section's writing style felt a little rushed. |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 20:46:27 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by Express Rider on Tue May 3 20:36:44 2016. A lot of other civilizations fell victim to that over the millenia, our boys were smart. Unlike republicans. :) |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 3 21:06:38 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic., posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 20:21:49 2016. So what's your opinion on the Seventeenth Amendment?How about executive-branch agencies? |
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Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 3 21:11:13 2016, in response to Re: Democracies end when they are too democratic, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 3 21:06:38 2016. System working as designed. If you'd prefer another plan, there's plenty of other places to move to. I'm fine with it. |
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