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Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 04:46:02 2016 Good! They can always sign up with the Space Pope. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-anniversary-conservatives-idUSKCN0WD0TF?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews Three years after the election of Pope Francis, Roman Catholic conservatives are growing increasingly worried that he is quietly unraveling the legacy of his predecessors. Francis' popularity with most Catholics, and legions of non-Catholics, has given him the image of a grandfatherly parish priest who understands how difficult it sometimes is to follow Church teachings, particularly those on sexual morality. Conservatives worry that behind the gentle facade lies a dangerous reformer who is diluting Catholic teaching on moral issues like homosexuality and divorce while focusing on social problems such as climate change and economic inequality. Interviews with four Vatican officials, including two cardinals and an archbishop, as well as theologians and commentators, highlighted conservative fears that Francis' words and deeds may eventually rupture the 1.2 billion member Church. Chatter on conservative blogs regularly accuses the Argentine pontiff of spreading doctrinal confusion and isolating those who see themselves as guardians of the faith. "Going to bed. Wake me up when this pontificate is over," Damien Thompson, associate editor of the British weekly "The Spectator" and a conservative Catholic commentator tweeted last month. Thompson was among conservatives stung by a freewheeling news conference Francis gave on a flight home from Mexico. In it, he stirred up the U.S. presidential debate by criticizing Republican candidate Donald Trump's immigration stance and made comments that were interpreted as an opening to use contraceptives to stop the spread of the Zika virus. They were the latest in a line of unscripted utterances that have left many conservatives feeling nostalgic for the days of Francis's two predecessors, Benedict and John Paul, who regularly thundered against contraception, homosexuality and abortion. "Every time this happens I wonder if he realizes how much confusion he is causing," said a conservative Rome-based cardinal who took part in the conclave that elected Francis three years ago and spoke on the condition of anonymity. He would not say if he voted for Francis because participants in conclaves are sworn to secrecy. THE POPE AND THE PEWS Another senior official, an archbishop in an important Vatican ministry, said: "These comments alarm not only tradition-minded priests but even liberal priests who have complained to me that people are challenging them on issues that are very straight-forward, saying 'the pope would let me do this' why don't you?'" Francis first shocked conservatives just months after his election on March 13, 2013, when he said "Who am I to judge?" about Catholic homosexuals who were at least trying to live by Church rules that they should be chaste. He caused further upset when he changed Church rules to allow women to take part in a male-only Lenten service, ruled out any campaigns to convert Jews and approved a "common prayer" with Lutherans for joint commemorations for next year's 500th anniversary of the start of the Protestant Reformation. An important crossroads in the conservative-progressive showdown is looming and might come as early as mid-March. It could reveal how far this politically astute pontiff wants to transform his Church. Francis is due to issue a document called an Apostolic Exhortation after two years of debate and two major meetings of bishops to discuss the family - the Vatican's way of referring to its policies concerning sex. The exercise, which began with an unprecedented poll of Catholics around the world, boiled down in the end to one hot-button issue - whether divorced Catholics who remarry outside the Church can receive communion at the central rite of Mass. Conservatives say any change would undermine the principle of the indissolubility of marriage that Jesus established. At the end of the synod last year, Francis excoriated immovable Church leaders who he said "bury their heads in the sand" and hide behind rigid doctrine while families suffer. The gathering's final document spoke of a so-called "internal forum" in which a priest or a bishop may work with a Catholic who has divorced and remarried to decide privately and on a case-by-case basis if he or she can be fully re-integrated. That crack in the doctrinal door annoyed many conservatives, who fear Francis' upcoming document may open the flood gates. WHOSE CHURCH IS IT ANYWAY? It is difficult to quantify Catholic conservatives. Liberals say they are a minority and reject conservative assertions that they are the real "base" of the Church. "The overwhelming majority of Catholics understand what the pope wants to do, and that is to reach out to everyone," said another cardinal close to Francis. Regardless of what their actual numbers might be, conservatives have big megaphones in social media. "It really has gotten more shrill and intense since Francis took over because he seems to get only positive feedback from the mainstream media. Therefore in the strange logic of (conservative) groups, he is someone who is immediately suspect if only for that," said the Catholic blogger Arthur Rosman. One of the leading conservative standard bearers, Ross Douthat, the Catholic author and New York Times op-ed columnist, has expressed deep worry about the long-term repercussions of the issue of communion for the divorced and remarried. "It may be that this conflict has only just begun," Douthat said in a lecture to American conservatives in January. "And it may be that as with previous conflicts in Church history, it will eventually be serious enough to end in real schism, a permanent parting of the ways." PREVIOUS RUPTURE The last internal rupture in the Church was in 1988 when French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre consecrated bishops without Vatican approval in order to guarantee succession in his ultra-traditionalist group, the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). The SSPX rejects the modernizing reforms of the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council, including the historic opening to dialogue with other religions. While it remains a small group, its dissent continues to undermine papal authority. The conservative standard bearer in Rome is Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, a 67-year-old American who in 2014 told an interviewer that the Church under Francis was like "a ship without a rudder". Francis was not pleased. That same year, he removed Burke as head of the Vatican's highest court and demoted him to the largely ceremonial post of chaplain of a charity group. Conservatives are also worried about Francis' drive to devolve decision-making power on several issues from the Vatican to regional, national or diocesan levels, what the pope has called "a healthy decentralization". This is an anathema to conservatives, who say rules should be applied identically around the world. They warn that a devolution of power would leave the Vatican vulnerable to the splits seen in the Anglican and Orthodox Churches. "If you look at these two big Churches, they are not in very good shape," said Massimo Faggioli, a Church historian and associate professor of theology at the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota. "That's why conservatives are nervous. They think Francis does not understand the danger." (Religion editor Tom Heneghan reported from Paris; Editing by Crispian Balmer and Janet McBride) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Mar 11 05:06:36 2016, in response to Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 04:46:02 2016. VIVA IL PAPA!!! |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:08:53 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SMAZ on Fri Mar 11 05:06:36 2016. There is no hold by the Catholic Church on any Parisioner. If you don't like it, you're free to leave. Follow your conscience has ALWAYS been the rule. It's nice to see a Pope that actually follows the ORIGINAL teachings, not the perverted republican version of it. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:10:57 2016, in response to Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 04:46:02 2016. sure.Cancelling Ann Coulter at Fordham was an eye-opener for me. I wonder if the Pope knows about Planned Parenthood. Or the fiasco in December when Syrian refugees were brought to midnight mass at St. Patrick's? It's a liberal circus. Still going to attend mass in Astoria though. Astoria, Forest Hills, and Bushwick. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:12:28 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:08:53 2016. I think I go to church because I'm obsessed with food and like the idea of not eating meat now.Or avoiding the wafers to avoid gluten. The women at church are hot. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:14:06 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:12:28 2016. Heh. You're going STRAIGHT to hell, Mister. Doubt-hat SEZ so! (one of your radio boys)
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:19:34 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:10:57 2016. Hmmmmmm ... who w1ns? :)
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:21:13 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:19:34 2016. By the way, I think that thick book might be Donald's tax returns, but not sure.(in order to satisfy the turtle since I get everything wrong anyway, heh) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:31:35 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:19:34 2016. I still go to church.It's in my DNA. Italians are uniquely ethnic Catholics. No other ethnicity can say that. Trump will be dumped soon. Brokered convention. Then he'll get mad and endorse Hillary or Bernie and give money and say he did all this to show racism in the GOP. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:45:32 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:31:35 2016. Heh. As Fred used to say, "They had it coming." :) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Fri Mar 11 06:57:31 2016, in response to Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 04:46:02 2016. The Church is like a pendulum lately. The last two Popes have been attempts to get as far away from their predecessor as possible |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Mar 11 09:29:18 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by mtk52983 on Fri Mar 11 06:57:31 2016. False. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Mar 11 09:43:07 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:08:53 2016. So you're against republicans as well as Republicans? |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 11 09:48:17 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SLRT on Fri Mar 11 09:43:07 2016. He's an ecclesiocrat. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 11 10:01:24 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:31:35 2016. False. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Mar 11 10:03:14 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Mar 11 09:48:17 2016. After John Paul II went to Poland, a Polish Catholic in my office said "Gee, wouldn't it be great if John Paul could be president of the world"?Who likes the idea for Francis? |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Mar 11 10:21:50 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SLRT on Fri Mar 11 10:03:14 2016. Not me. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 13:42:08 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SLRT on Fri Mar 11 09:43:07 2016. Heh. I'm merely tired of crazies. :) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Mar 11 14:10:16 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by mtk52983 on Fri Mar 11 06:57:31 2016. The last two Popes have been attempts to get as far away from their predecessor as possibleThe last two Popes are much more alike than people think. The only differences are their priorities and personal styles. Benedict XVI priorities were attempts to resuscitate the supremacy of the Church in Europe and his style was overly academic. He was also criticized for being too much of a Vatican insider. Francis is an internationalist who comes from a very different tradition (Latin American Jesuit) and is an outsider. He tends to de-prioritize the dogmas that tend to be off-putting to most Catholics. He also took an aggressive role in cleaning up the Curia. Benedict's project was a purer, more top-down, more Eurocentric Church. Francis' project is the opposite. A looser, more global, more inclusive, less-institutional Church where it acknowledges that what works in Hungary may not work in the Philippines. However from a theological standpoint, they are practically twins. Both have the same exact positions on the environment, social justice, capitalism, ecumenism, the role of women, abortion, immigration, ordination and other hot-button issues. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Mar 11 14:18:03 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SMAZ on Fri Mar 11 14:10:16 2016. Well, my response was more concise. :) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Mar 11 14:29:20 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SLRT on Fri Mar 11 10:03:14 2016. No pope should be president of anything. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Mar 11 14:32:07 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 13:42:08 2016. Cover your mirrors, then....HAH! *VBG* |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 14:36:41 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by Dave on Fri Mar 11 14:32:07 2016. Obligatory reply then ..."Maybe there is a broken mirror somewhere to explain your last seven years". :) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:41:41 2016, in response to Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 04:46:02 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:41:56 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SMAZ on Fri Mar 11 05:06:36 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:43:13 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Mar 11 05:12:28 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:43:51 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:14:06 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:44:27 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by italianstallion on Fri Mar 11 14:29:20 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:44:39 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by AlM on Fri Mar 11 10:21:50 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:45:04 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 13:42:08 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:45:23 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 14:36:41 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:46:46 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:19:34 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:47:00 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:21:13 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:47:53 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 05:45:32 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:48:15 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by AlM on Fri Mar 11 09:29:18 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:48:39 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SMAZ on Fri Mar 11 14:10:16 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:48:57 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by AlM on Fri Mar 11 14:18:03 2016. Jorge Mario Bergoglio. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 15:08:30 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:41:41 2016. 
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 15:08:39 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:41:56 2016.
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 15:08:48 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 14:43:13 2016.
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:02:08 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 15:08:30 2016. I am on my way to the UIC Pavilion now. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:03:00 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 15:08:39 2016. I am on my way to the UIC Pavilion now. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:03:27 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 15:08:48 2016. I am on my way to the UIC Pavilion now. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 16:05:58 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:02:08 2016. Don't get beaten up. :) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by bingbong on Fri Mar 11 16:18:00 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:03:27 2016. Don't get beaten up. :-) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:19:56 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 16:05:58 2016. I won't. I will be amongst friends. |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:25:39 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by bingbong on Fri Mar 11 16:18:00 2016. You Don't want me to get beaten up? |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 16:30:36 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:25:39 2016. Keep your head down, wear your athletic cup, and PRAISE the Trump and you'll be OK. :) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 16:31:11 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:19:56 2016. Ah ... well if THAT'S the case, then don't get arrested. :) |
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Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Mar 11 16:33:06 2016, in response to Re: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Mar 11 16:30:36 2016. What athletic cup? |
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