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| Allegiant Air: "BINGO" (1304759) | |
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Allegiant Air: "BINGO" |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:23:17 2015 |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 30 03:36:05 2015, in response to Allegiant Air: "BINGO", posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:23:17 2015. What BULLSHIT. :(Ask any REAL pilot. You get sent up out of the terminal with not enough fuel, and woe be ye if you run your calc, check the weather ahead and figure out quickly that you don't have enough to get there even if everything is fine. Airlines believe that pilots piss away fuel and really screw with them if they ask for any more. This kind of bingo happens far more often that one might expect. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:40:35 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 30 03:36:05 2015. I agree.THey use minimal fuel to lighten the load. He got stuck in a holding pattern. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 30 03:41:57 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:40:35 2015. Fuel adds weight just like the hambeasts and their luggage on board. Fuel weighs too and burns more fuel as well. Some airlines will pump in less than you asked for under that premise of "you can get there with this amount, don't worry about the luggage, we won't weigh it." :( |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 07:36:28 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 30 03:36:05 2015. It doesn't happen nearly as much as you might expect. I had lunch yesterday with a recently retired SW captain and a retired AA international captain and we discussed this extensively. They said if the captain asks for more fuel, they get more fuel end of story. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Jul 30 07:51:40 2015, in response to Allegiant Air: "BINGO", posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:23:17 2015. I kinda think his use of the term Bingo and oddly combative, unprofessional demeanor on the radio is even more disturbing than the fact that the plane was low on fuel. Bingo doesn't mean "running out of fuel", it's a point where the aircraft must return to base to land within fuel allowances. And it's a term that should be restricted to military use. How much fuel did that pilot burn while the Controller was trying to get him to just declare an emergency to land at his desired airport? |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Thu Jul 30 08:13:31 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 07:36:28 2015. Why do I believe you more than I believe the person you are responding to? |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Thu Jul 30 08:20:07 2015, in response to Allegiant Air: "BINGO", posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:23:17 2015. Navy. Figures. As of 301215Z(UTC) JUL 15, the magical and mysterious WilliamD and one SelkirkTMO are winning this thread going away. Unless Dave the Aviator from |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 10:07:48 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by cortelyounext on Thu Jul 30 08:20:07 2015. Turns out the story is one part fact, eight parts BS:"There are two major plot twists in the Allegiant Air case. As a reminder, the flight took off late from Vegas on Monday, July 27th and proceeded to fly to Fargo, despite the airport being closed. When asked to circle until they cleared the runway, the pilot said he had “bingo fuel” and needed to go down now. The plane did not circle beforehand, so there was no way it could have burnt a lot of fuel in that short of a time. So the FAA investigated why the plane apparently had 3 minutes of fuel left. But then it turns out there was a plot twist. Let’s go back to when the pilot had “bingo” fuel. According to Review Journal, when the plane landed, it had 42 minutes of fuel left. So when the pilot said they had “bingo fuel,” he was either mischaracterizing what he had, or he had no idea how much fuel he had left. So a plane declared a emergency landing and landed at a closed airport running practice exercises. Within a few minutes of arriving at the airport. With 42 minutes of fuel left. So why would a seasoned pilot lie about or not be aware of what his fuel levels are at? Here comes the second plot twist. Neither pilot was a seasoned, regular pilot. According to Review Journal: Two Allegiant Air executives, the vice president of operations and the director of flight safety, were at the controls of the flight that made an emergency landing last week because it was nearly out of fuel. Greg Baden, Allegiant’s vice president of operations, and Michael Wuerger, director of flight safety, government affairs and quality assurance, were flying Allegiant’s Flight 426 from McCarran International Airport to the Fargo, N.D., Hector International Airport on July 23. A representative of Allegiant confirmed that Baden and Wuerger were flying the plane, adding that it is not uncommon for members of operations management to take flights to maintain their pilot status. Now I understand flying along to keep up your pilot status–but allowing both pilots to be people who fly part time seems irresponsible. Here are just a few points they missed on: They were unaware of how much fuel they had either at taking off and when landing OR they intentionally lied to air traffic control about how much they had They were unaware that Fargo airport was closed–despite the FAA issuing multiple warnings about that. They had an unnecessary emergency declared at the closed airport Ultimately, it is up to the pilot to know how much fuel he has when departing and how much fuel he has when landing. He is in charge of the craft, and it is the captain’s and co-pilot’s responsibilities to maintain the integrity of the flight. It is their responsibilities to know if the airport they are flying to is open and it is their responsibilities to be the stewards of safety for every person on that plane. No wonder people in the management of Allegiant Air were also trying to dial air traffic control and the pilots did not know the proper numbers to give them. What I think happened is–two dude bros at Allegiant Air decided to take a joy ride together from Vegas to keep their pilot status, rather than traveling with a co-pilot who is more seasoned. Out of a disregard for the passengers, they preferred to fly together and committed basic errors regarding fuel, their (now closed) destination, and distances to nearby open airports. They were flying a Mad Dog. They should have been aware of what they were getting into. They were not flying a Dash 8 they could put down anywhere. There were 140 passengers on the plane. This just feels completely irresponsible. And I feel more outraged than I did when the story originally broke." Allegiant |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Jul 30 10:13:21 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 10:07:48 2015. Or possibly they were 3 minutes from min fuel where they would have lacked sufficient reserves to divert if something happened in the 20 minute hold |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jul 30 11:28:18 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 10:07:48 2015. If it's really true that two executives with relatively little annual time spent flying were flying a plane full of passengers, that's insane. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 11:29:04 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by AlM on Thu Jul 30 11:28:18 2015. IAWTP. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Thu Jul 30 15:31:28 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:40:35 2015. He got stuck in a holding pattern.Yeah. Here  |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 30 17:40:25 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 07:36:28 2015. Not ... anymore. You should ask someone who's still flying. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 30 17:52:36 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 10:07:48 2015. Wow. Thanks for the backfill. :-\ |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Jul 31 07:33:23 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Jul 30 17:40:25 2015. I call Bullshit. "Recently retired" as in about 6 months. Nothing has changed in the last 6 months regarding the captain having the last word on fuel. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 07:45:15 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Thu Jul 30 07:36:28 2015. won't a pilot who flies with more fuel that management sugge$ts be labeled a troublemaker? |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Jul 31 08:15:29 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by AlM on Thu Jul 30 11:28:18 2015. Allegiant does not exactly have a stellar risk management reputation. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Fri Jul 31 08:35:06 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 07:45:15 2015. Depends how frequent the requests are and the reason. If I knew I had a narrow window to depart before my destination airport would temporarily close I would definitely request more fuel to hold. The likelihood of a diversion will cost more than the extra fuel |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Fri Jul 31 09:07:05 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Fri Jul 31 07:33:23 2015. Owned!!!!!!! |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 09:24:15 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 07:45:15 2015. Although I am anxiously awaiting for trains61, who is lurking somewhere in the background monitoring this thread, to weigh in on this issue, at this point Dave the Aviator and the mtk52983 are currently the leaders in the clubhouse and are headed for a Fly-Off. This showdown has real potential and shows real promise of turning into all out warfare complete with UPAs and ad hominem attacks and I, for one, am looking forward to it. Thanks for participating in the Allegiant Air thread. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Jul 31 09:47:36 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 09:24:15 2015. Answer the question. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 09:50:18 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Jul 31 09:47:36 2015. I just did. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Jul 31 10:39:18 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by mtk52983 on Fri Jul 31 08:35:06 2015. Right answer but rarely for that reason. Common requests for more fuel are stronger headwinds aloft that usual for a route. In winter, when headwinds are stronger, requesting extra fuel is not uncommon. When I had lunch with my pilot buddies on Wednesday the AA pilot said winter headwinds of 160 knots are not unusual.The SW pilot said last year he was flying DAL-LAX and was chatting with a pilot who had just arrived from LAX. The inbound captain said aircraft at LAX were declaring low fuel alerts because headwinds had been so strong. My buddy went to flight ops and told the dispatcher he wanted an extra 5,000 lbs of fuel. The dispatcher asked why; he explained why; the flight plan docs were updated; weight and balance and V-speeds adjusted; and that was it. And no, Selkirk, the fuel jockeys didn't give him less fuel than requested in order to save money and load more passengers....*VBG* |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by Dave on Fri Jul 31 10:43:40 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by TerrApin Station on Fri Jul 31 09:07:05 2015. Also, see: Owned!!!!!!! |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 31 10:58:21 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 09:24:15 2015. Although I am anxiously awaiting for trains61, who is lurking somewhere in the background monitoring this thread,I'm waiting for jan k. lorenzen who is doing the same. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 11:16:23 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by SMAZ on Fri Jul 31 10:58:21 2015. Yeah. I think Jan is Flemish or Netherlandish or Dutch one of those places. To better illustrate my point, here is a picture by Jan Van Eyck (ca. 1390 - 1441) of some lady reading a book. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Jul 31 12:33:43 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 09:50:18 2015. pwn3d |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Jul 31 12:40:34 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Dave on Fri Jul 31 10:43:40 2015. yep |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jul 31 16:57:32 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by Charles G on Fri Jul 31 08:15:29 2015. Interesting perspective. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by busdude2 on Fri Jul 31 17:16:03 2015, in response to Allegiant Air: "BINGO", posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jul 30 03:23:17 2015. I would not even put a dog on that airline. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 17:32:18 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by busdude2 on Fri Jul 31 17:16:03 2015. I flew Allegiant from St. Pete to Allentown 5 years ago.Only choice I had. We landed safely. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 17:42:36 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 17:32:18 2015. I flew...I trust you learned your lesson. Only choice I had. That statement is so wrong on so many levels I do not even know where to begin. We landed safely. Your point being? |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Fri Jul 31 17:46:23 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 17:42:36 2015. IAWTP. St. Pete to Allentown he could have driven if Amtrak or bus wouldn't work out |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 21:50:26 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by mtk52983 on Fri Jul 31 17:46:23 2015. Thanks for attacking Mktzipcode.I had to bring an elderly relative who did want to spend two days in a car eating Waffle House and Wawa on the Interstate. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Fri Jul 31 21:54:02 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 21:50:26 2015. 1) It isn't a zip code2) Nobody said you had to stop at Waffle House (though chicagomotorman swears by it) or Wawa 3) Don't you value your elderly relative's life? |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 21:56:54 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by mtk52983 on Fri Jul 31 21:54:02 2015. 1) It isn't a zip codeThen it's your zip code on OTchat 2) Nobody said you had to stop at Waffle House (though chicagomotorman swears by it) or Wawa Well, crappy food. You get the idea. Try going gluten-free between Florida and Baltimore. 3) Don't you value your elderly relative's life? I did not make the decision. On my end, I now encourage aviation. Many aviators post here. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 22:11:43 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 31 21:56:54 2015. I am off to Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Houston over the next few days. If I wasn't on the road for United Van Lines I'd definitely fly and that is a fact. Aviation is a safe, efficient mode of transportation and anybody who cannot understand that is ignorant. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by trains61 on Sat Aug 1 02:05:52 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 09:24:15 2015. Await no more Cortelyounext. At the Non Cactus airline Dave the Avaitor has answered the question correctly, as far as AA is concerned.However Allegiant is a different animal, all together. All due respect to the Brodaway Lion. Flying is still dangerous. Many diversions in the desert this evening due to monsoon activity. Hope all is well at United Van Lines. The Lurker`s Guild Aviation Division |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Aug 1 02:07:51 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by trains61 on Sat Aug 1 02:05:52 2015. The mere mention of Allegiant requires that I declare a "Pan-Pan-Pan" on this thread. Please fasten your seatbelts, we're going in dry. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Aug 1 02:08:26 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by trains61 on Sat Aug 1 02:05:52 2015. have you ever flown? |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by trains61 on Sat Aug 1 02:12:42 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Aug 1 02:07:51 2015. Lol. Happy Landings and safe travels... |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by trains61 on Sat Aug 1 02:15:08 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by LuchAAA on Sat Aug 1 02:08:26 2015. Only when absolutely necessary. It is truly dangerous.Cortelyounext is totally fearless! |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Aug 1 02:16:32 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by trains61 on Sat Aug 1 02:15:08 2015. I think I am the only person here to have actually flown on an Allegiant metal tube.Their planes are old. Feminism is taking over aviation though. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Aug 1 02:16:38 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by trains61 on Sat Aug 1 02:12:42 2015. And please remove your personal items before exiting subchat. If you don't, they're mine. That is all. |
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Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'' |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Aug 1 09:55:14 2015, in response to Re: Allegiant Air: ''BINGO'', posted by cortelyounext on Fri Jul 31 11:16:23 2015. 
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