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NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015

fiogf49gjkf0d
Setting themselves up for a bigger fall than Detroit. Just a step away from allowing illegals to vote too.

Manchester Guardian

Non-citizens in New York City could soon be given the right to vote

New York City council is currently drafting legislation that would allow all legal residents, regardless of US citizenship, the right to vote in city elections

Kanishk Tharoor
Thursday 2 April 2015 14.45 EDT
New York City is routinely described as a “global hub”, a place so thoroughly penetrated by international capital and migration that it seems at once within and without the United States. It is the center of American commerce and media, but its politics, demographics and worldly outlook make the Big Apple an outlier.

New York may be about to become even more distinct. The left-leaning New York City council is currently drafting legislation that would allow all legal residents, regardless of citizenship, the right to vote in city elections. If the measure passes into law, it would mark a major victory for a voting rights campaign that seeks to enfranchise non-citizen voters in local elections across the country. A few towns already permit non-citizen residents to vote locally, but New York City would be by far the largest jurisdiction to do so.

Under the likely terms of the legislation, legally documented residents who have lived in New York City for at least six months will be able to vote in municipal elections. Reports suggest that the city council is discussing the legislation with Mayor Bill de Blasio’s office, and that a bill might be introduced as soon as this spring.

While the legislation stands a good chance of sailing through the council and even winning the approval of the mayor, the prospect of New York City enfranchising its residents has stoked controversy. Many Americans find the idea of non-citizen voting entirely unpalatable and fear that it undermines the sanctity and privilege of citizenship.

Advocates for non-citizen voting in New York City argue that it would right a glaring wrong. Invoking the ancient American battle cry of “no taxation without representation”, they point to the enormous numbers of non-citizen residents who pay taxes, send their children to public schools, are active members of their communities, but have no say in local elections.

“People are New Yorkers in profound ways without being citizens of the US,” said Ronald Hayduk, a professor of political science at Queens College and a member of the Coalition to Expand Voting Rights. Non-citizen residents contribute $18.2 billion to New York state in income taxes every year. According to a 2013 Fiscal Policy Institute study, 1.3 million people in New York City over the age of 18 are non-citizens (a full 21% of the voting age population). Adjusting the figure to account for undocumented migrants, the study claims that about one million more New Yorkers would be eligible to vote were the bill passed.

In the immigrant-heavy borough of Queens, non-citizens make up as much as half of the population in areas like Jackson Heights, Elmhurst and Corona. In parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx, they make up well over a third of certain districts. “It’s very different in New York than in middle America,” said Jerry Vattamala, a staff attorney at the Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund.

Supporters of the legislation claim that politicians can overlook the needs of entire communities if non-citizens don’t have voting rights. According to Vattamala, council redistricting has deliberately carved up many immigrant neighborhoods, portioning their non-citizen residents to several districts.

“Elected officials salivate at the prospect of districts with people they don’t have to respond to,” he says. “Many of these communities have lots of non-naturalized residents or newly naturalized residents who are not yet practiced in voting. They get treated like human fillers.” Advocates believe that legal residents should have a say in the daily matters that affect them, like transportation, public safety, affordable housing, language access and translation services, sanitation, schools and parks.

Democratic city councilman Daniel Dromm, the bill’s architect, represents District 25, which includes parts of Jackson Heights and Elmhurst. “Enfranchising non-citizens would make communities like mine more important to city-wide and state officials,” he said. “We can’t ignore them if they can vote.”

Like local elections elsewhere in the US, local elections in New York City suffer from shrinking turnout: 24% of eligible voters cast ballots in the 2013 election that brought De Blasio to office, a new low. “It’s ironic that people think national or state elections are more important than local elections, when they better determine lived day-to-day realities,” Hayduk says. “If there were 1 million new voters in New York City, voter turnout would increase.”

More importantly, Hayduk says, non-citizen voting would refresh local politics to better reflect the needs of city residents. “It would produce new issues, new candidates, and new outcomes.”

He offered an example from the 1980s. From 1969 to 2002, non-citizen New Yorkers could vote in community school board elections (the school board was abolished in 2003). Civic groups encouraged thousands of Dominican non-citizen residents of Washington Heights to vote in school board polls. Their participation eventually forced the administration of Mayor Ed Koch to direct greater resources to neglected schools.

Dromm tried two years ago to advance legislation on non-citizen voting. He had won the support of 35 of the city council’s 51 members, forming a veto-proof majority. But he faced the obstruction of then council speaker Christine Quinn and the unbreakable opposition of the Bloomberg administration. “The speaker and the mayor didn’t want [the legislation] to go forward,” Dromm said. “The speaker exerted power over the council’s committees.” The legislation stalled on the council floor.

Two years later, political circumstances make its passage much more tenable. The current city council speaker, Melissa Mark-Viverito, supports the proposal. While he hasn’t given his explicit backing, De Blasio claims that he remains open to debate on non-citizen voting. The mayor has launched other pro-immigrant reforms, like the municipal ID card scheme.

‘As New York City goes, so goes the rest of the world’

The city council’s three lonely Republicans have repeatedly voiced their opposition to non-citizen voting. Two of them come from the Republican redoubt of Staten Island and represent districts with very few non-citizens, 4% and 10% respectively. The third, Eric Ulrich, represents a Queens district where one-fifth of residents are non-citizens. “The right to vote is a privilege and a sacred obligation that citizens have enjoyed. It should only be for United States citizens,” he told Newsday. “It’s also a reason for people who are on a path to citizenship to aspire to citizenship. It’s something for them to look forward to.”

Peter Schuck, an emeritus professor of law at Yale University, also worries about the dilution of citizenship. “My guess is that it would cause many Americans to wonder what the point of citizenship is if anyone can vote without even bothering to learn or be committed enough to apply for naturalization,” he said via email.

According to Vattamala, this emphasis on the meaning of citizenship misrepresents the very limited, local scope of non-citizen voting. “Did school board elections — where non-naturalized parents with children in local schools voted — defile the sanctity of citizenship?” he says. “It’s about effective representation. If people live here and pay taxes, they have a stake in the city.”

Permitting non-citizen voting would also address the fact that pathways to citizenship are not as straightforward as they were for immigrants in the 19th and early 20th centuries. “It’s more complicated and expensive now compared to a century ago, when it was much easier, faster, and cheaper to become a citizen,” Hayduk said. He argues that far from being a disincentive to citizenship, non-citizen voting would empower New Yorkers and serve as a vehicle for integration, fostering “the experience of the practice of citizenship”. Vattamala agrees. “Most people engaged enough to vote in municipal elections will become citizens,” he said.

Citizenship has not always been the prerequisite for suffrage in the US. During the first 150 years of American history, non-citizens were allowed to vote in 40 states and territories. “Alien suffrage” was whittled away in the late 19th century and early 20th centuries, coinciding with large waves of migration from eastern and southern Europe. A xenophobic 1902 Washington Post editorial captured the political mood, bemoaning the “marked and increasing deterioration in the quality of immigration” and fretting that the newcomers were “men who are no more fit to be trusted with the ballot than babies are to be furnished with friction matches for playthings”.

“Voting in America has constantly changed,” Dromm said. “We have an evolving understanding of suffrage. Women and African Americans were given voting rights. Now it’s time to restore those rights to non-citizens.”

Currently in the US, six small towns in Maryland allow non-citizen voting in local elections. Chicago lets non-citizens vote in its school elections. Non-citizen voting exists elsewhere in the world, chiefly within the context of supranational arrangements like the European Union, the Nordic Passport Union and the British Commonwealth. But many countries extend suffrage more broadly, like New Zealand and Chile, where permanent residents are allowed to vote regardless of their nationality, and Colombia and Ireland, where foreigners can vote in local elections. Advocates of non-citizen voting believe that a victory in New York City would have tremendous symbolic importance in their efforts to expand voting rights across the country.

“As New York City goes,” Dromm said, “so goes the rest of the world.”


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(1278961)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 5 21:02:46 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I stopped at "left leaning" at the beginning of the second graf.

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(1278964)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 5 21:09:28 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
So you oppose the right to vote?

I guess democracy is a bit too liberal for you...

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(1278970)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by SMAZ on Sun Apr 5 21:20:06 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
This happened in the 1800's too.

If I move to Germany, Britain or any other EU country, I can vote in their local elections.

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(1279042)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:21:18 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Apr 5 21:02:46 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
So you have no problem with non citizens voting?

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(1279045)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:25:51 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 5 21:09:28 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
If you are a United States citizen yes.

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(1279051)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 5 21:09:28 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I am with ChicagoMotorman here. The right to vote is a right conferred by citizenship. If you are not a citizen of the United States, you do not have the right to vote in any election: federal, state or local

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(1279055)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 09:49:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't see the justification for that.

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(1279062)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:55:30 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Well Thank you!

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(1279063)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 09:49:11 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
The justification is the United States Constitution. The text of the 15th Amendment is clear: "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

Voting is a right stemming from being a United States citizen

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(1279065)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 09:57:07 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:21:18 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Every vote by a non-citizen is one stolen from a citizen.

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(1279066)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:58:08 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 09:57:07 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
iawtlp

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(1279069)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:02:09 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
No, the right to vote does not stem from the 15th amendment. And it still says nothing about restricting the right to vote to citizens.

On the other hand, the Confederate Constitution quite clearly restricted the right to vote to Confederate citizens.

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(1279070)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:03:23 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Also, you missed the point. Whether or not the Constitution states that the right to vote is a right conferred only on citizens (it doesn't), does not at all justify why it should be a right conferred only on citizens. All of the arguments seem to boil down to tradition or some other bullshit.

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(1279074)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:06:36 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 09:57:07 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
LOL!

Letting non-citizens vote doesn't prevent citizens from voting.

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(1279077)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:08:18 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 09:58:08 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I can't comprehend how anyone would think having their vote stolen from them is good. Doublethink really exists!

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(1279080)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:09:57 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:08:18 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I can't comprehend how anyone would think more people voting is having your vote stolen. You probably still resent that they let women vote and abolished literacy tests for voting.

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(1279085)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 10:26:54 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:09:57 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
It dilutes the votes of actual United States citizens because if 100 citizens vote 60-40 for one candidate but the candidate that got 40 votes wins 21-0 among non-citizens then the candidate that lost the vote of the citizens will win the election if you allow non-citizens to vote

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(1279086)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:28:25 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:06:36 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
But it potentially dilutes the vote of citizens.

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(1279088)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:29:48 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:03:23 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Can you name another country that allows non-citizens to vote in their national elections?

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(1279091)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:32:58 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:43:28 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
There is no an explicit provision in the Constitution guaranteeing the right to vote but several amendments guarantee the right to vote at age 18, free of racial discrimination, and protected by the Equal Protection doctrine.

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(1279092)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:37:59 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 10:26:54 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
It dilutes the votes of actual male Americans because if 100 men vote 60-40 for one candidate but the candidate that got 40 votes wins 21-0 among women then the candidate that lost the vote of the men will win the election if you allow women to vote.

Now I don't think that denying the right to vote for non-citizens is nearly as horrible as other kinds of voter restrictions (I'm not sure that it's horrible at all), but your argument is completely interchangeable with arguments against allowing women or minorities to vote.

It's most analogous, IMO to allowing 18-20 year olds to vote.

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(1279094)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:41:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:29:48 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
This thread isn't about national elections. But anyway: when it comes to liberals complaining about some policy that other countries have that we don't (like single payer healthcare), conservatives rail on about "exceptionalism" and why the policies of other countries aren't good enough for America because America is so great.

If America is so great, it can be the first to do something good.

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(1279096)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Apr 6 10:45:19 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I thought only USA citizens could vote in any election. But, I'm not surprised that William Castro-Ortega DeBlasio would attempt to do this!

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(1279098)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:46:37 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:32:58 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes. There is no constitutional right for non-citizens to vote, but it is within the power of the legislature to allow them to.

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(1279100)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:52:49 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 10:41:11 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
So "something good" is stealing votes from citizens, solely to benefit the politicians???

You're crazier than I thought.

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(1279101)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 10:58:32 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:29:48 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
He wants to disenfranchise citizens—including women—all for the sole benefit of the politicians.

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(1279102)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:00:00 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:28:25 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
"Dilutes"? No, it's called disenfranchisement.

And who benefits? Neither the citizens nor non-citizens. Solely the politicians, who lie about "representing" the non-citizens (at the expense of citizens, take note, if it were true).

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(1279103)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:04:01 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 10:26:54 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
It's like allowing English citizens a vote on whether the original thirteen colonies ought to break away from the Empire.

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(1279105)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:05:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:32:58 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
. . . to citizens. Nations have borders.

Let's try and do this "non-citizen voting" thing in Red China, shall we?

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(1279106)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:05:43 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:00:00 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
You don't even know what disenfranchisement is. Just like you don't know what "protected class" means.

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(1279107)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:06:14 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:04:01 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Except that they did have a vote on that, dipshit.

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(1279108)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:08:04 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:05:11 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
You mean the country where voting is meaningless because it's a single party dictatorship?

Why are you so obsessed with communist countries? Sounds like you secretly wish the US were one of those.

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(1279114)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:21:00 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:00:00 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
No, it's not disenfranchisement.

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(1279115)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:26:12 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:21:00 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
How is it not disenfranchisement?? Taking votes away from citizens does not merely "dilute the vote"—it destroys it. And nobody benefits but the politicians.

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(1279116)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:28:44 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:21:00 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
No, it's not.

I was hoping for someone sane like you or mtk to continue arguing against this proposal.

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(1279119)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:35:57 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:26:12 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
How is letting a non-citizen vote taking away the vote of a citizen? The non-citizen's vote may "cancel out" the citizen's vote; it may throw an election to a candidate who would not have otherwise won; but the citizen is still able to cast a vote.

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(1279120)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:41:01 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 11:35:57 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
So canceling out by non-citizens is not disenfranchisement?

It's absolutely not the same as citizens putatively "canceling out" each others' votes.

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(1279133)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 11:57:30 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 09:56:18 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Voting is a right stemming from being a United States citizen

OK, so the 15th amendment allows the government to deny your right to vote if you are a non-citizen. And the government has done that, and all is well.

But where does it say that the government MUST deny your right to vote?



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(1279149)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Apr 6 12:43:25 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:41:01 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Technically the correct word is "dilution" not "disenfranchisement"

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(1279157)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 13:18:27 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 11:08:04 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Wouldn't you love the United States to be a one party.

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(1279158)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 13:20:11 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Mon Apr 6 13:18:27 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
No, I wouldn't. Olog-hai, on the other hand, is obsessed with one party states.

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(1279161)

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 13:56:36 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 6 11:41:01 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
So canceling out by non-citizens is not disenfranchisement?

No, it's not.

Merriam-Webster defines disenfranchise as:

"to deprive of a franchise, of a legal right, or of some privilege or immunity; especially : to deprive of the right to vote"

In U.S. law, disfranchisement most commonly refers to the removal of the right to vote. A non-citizen voting doesn't deprive a citizen from his or her right to vote.

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 13:58:56 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 10:28:25 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Which is a valid reason for not allowing non-citizens to vote.


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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 14:00:16 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 13:58:56 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
How so?

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Dave on Mon Apr 6 14:08:44 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 13:58:56 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree.

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 14:13:52 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 14:00:16 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
Members of an organization get to decide how the organization is run. That includes deciding what voice they want to give to non-members, and the process for admitting new members.



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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Apr 6 14:18:26 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 14:13:52 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
EXCELLENT POST! THANK YOU!

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 6 14:22:36 2015, in response to NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 5 19:25:30 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
SMAZZA, AlM, Bauman, Kevin from Midwood, SUBWAYSURF, FtGG, clearaspect G1Ravage, and FuckBklyn1959 are all in agreement with this.

I can see this List helping people register to vote.

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Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote

Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 6 14:28:29 2015, in response to Re: NYC Council planning to give legal aliens (non-citizens) the right to vote, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 6 14:22:36 2015.

fiogf49gjkf0d
SMAZZA, AlM, Bauman, Kevin from Midwood, SUBWAYSURF, FtGG, clearaspect G1Ravage, and FuckBklyn1959 are all in agreement with this.

Ha.

Tap knee. Knee jerks forward.


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