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| MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 (1260216) | |
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| (1260216) | |
MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 13:37:57 2015 From NYTIMES.COM:Library Visit, Then Held at Gunpoint Charles Blow: At Yale, the Police Detained My Son Saturday evening, I got a call that no parent wants to get. It was my son calling from college — he’s a third-year student at Yale. He had been accosted by a campus police officer, at gunpoint! This is how my son remembers it: He left for the library around 5:45 p.m. to check the status of a book he had requested. The book hadn’t arrived yet, but since he was there he put in a request for some multimedia equipment for a project he was working on. Then he left to walk back to his dorm room. He says he saw an officer “jogging” toward the entrance of another building across the grounds from the building he’d just left. Then this: “I did not pay him any mind, and continued to walk back towards my room. I looked behind me, and noticed that the police officer was following me. He spoke into his shoulder-mounted radio and said, ‘I got him.’ “I faced forward again, presuming that the officer was not talking to me. I then heard him say, ‘Hey, turn around!’ — which I did. “The officer raised his gun at me, and told me to get on the ground. “At this point, I stopped looking directly at the officer, and looked down towards the pavement. I dropped to my knees first, with my hands raised, then laid down on my stomach. “The officer asked me what my name was. I gave him my name. “The officer asked me what school I went to. I told him Yale University. “At this point, the officer told me to get up.” The officer gave his name, then asked my son to “give him a call the next day.” My son continued: “I got up slowly, and continued to walk back to my room. I was scared. My legs were shaking slightly. After a few more paces, the officer said, ‘Hey, my man. Can you step off to the side?’ I did.” The officer asked him to turn around so he could see the back of his jacket. He asked his name again, then, finally, asked to see my son’s ID. My son produced his school ID from his wallet. The officer asked more questions, and my son answered. All the while the officer was relaying this information to someone over his radio. My son heard someone on the radio say back to the officer “something to the effect of: ‘Keep him there until we get this sorted out.’ ” The officer told my son that an incident report would be filed, and then he walked away. A female officer approached. My son recalled, “I told her that an officer had just stopped me and pointed his gun at me, and that I wanted to know what this was all about.” She explained students had called about a burglary suspect who fit my son’s description. That suspect was apparently later arrested in the area. When I spoke to my son, he was shaken up. I, however, was fuming. Now, don’t get me wrong: If indeed my son matched the description of a suspect, I would have had no problem with him being questioned appropriately. School is his community, his home away from home, and he would have appreciated reasonable efforts to keep it safe. The stop is not the problem; the method of the stop is the problem. Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story Why was a gun drawn first? Why was he not immediately told why he was being detained? Why not ask for ID first? What if my son had panicked under the stress, having never had a gun pointed at him before, and made what the officer considered a “suspicious” movement? Had I come close to losing him? Triggers cannot be unpulled. Bullets cannot be called back. My son was unarmed, possessed no plunder, obeyed all instructions, answered all questions, did not attempt to flee or resist in any way. This is the scenario I have always dreaded: my son at the wrong end of a gun barrel, face down on the concrete. I had always dreaded the moment that we would share stories about encounters with the police in which our lives hung in the balance, intergenerational stories of joining the inglorious “club.” When that moment came, I was exceedingly happy I had talked to him about how to conduct himself if a situation like this ever occurred. Yet I was brewing with sadness and anger that he had to use that advice. Continue reading the main story376Comments I am reminded of what I have always known, but what some would choose to deny: that there is no way to work your way out — earn your way out — of this sort of crisis. In these moments, what you’ve done matters less than how you look. There is no amount of respectability that can bend a gun’s barrel. All of our boys are bound together. The dean of Yale College and the campus police chief have apologized and promised an internal investigation, and I appreciate that. But the scars cannot be unmade. My son will always carry the memory of the day he left his college library and an officer trained a gun on him. ------------------------------------------------------------------- So what if he son were White..... he would have been treated way better....like with RESPECT. |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by vfrt on Mon Jan 26 14:25:32 2015, in response to MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 13:37:57 2015. Sounds like standard police procedure to hold suspect at gunpoint. Maybe the Yale cops should stop responding to on campus robbery and burglary complaints. That should make everyone happy. |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 26 14:34:18 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by vfrt on Mon Jan 26 14:25:32 2015. No. |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 14:43:28 2015, in response to MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 13:37:57 2015. How do you know he would have been treated any different if White? |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 15:17:10 2015, in response to MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 13:37:57 2015. IAWTP ! |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by tRAin dUDe on Mon Jan 26 16:26:47 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 14:43:28 2015. He doesn't. He's just doing his usual sidewalk trolling act |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 17:18:09 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 15:17:10 2015. How would you know what life is like at Yale? |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Jan 26 17:58:39 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 17:18:09 2015. Maybe he thought that you meant "jail". |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 18:17:10 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jan 26 17:58:39 2015. LOL! |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:24:41 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by vfrt on Mon Jan 26 14:25:32 2015. "Sounds like standard police procedure to hold suspect at gunpoint."Really? is Yale a ghetto-type campus? that news to me......what do you know about "police procedures?" do you watch old Dragnet and Adam-12 reruns? eh? "Maybe the Yale cops should stop responding to on campus robbery and burglary complaints. That should make everyone happy." For a City campus.......like Columbia, they have a closed campus where you can only get into with proper ID.....THIW. |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:24:54 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 26 14:34:18 2015. IAWTP |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:26:19 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 14:43:28 2015. "How do you know he would have been treated any different if White?"He would have been......you're in denial once again.....maybe we just need to look at the police records of the Yale campus police to really answer that question properly. |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:27:14 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by tRAin dUDe on Mon Jan 26 16:26:47 2015. "He doesn't. He's just doing his usual sidewalk trolling act "And I see mommy let you again in front the PC for good behavior....... |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:28:47 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 17:18:09 2015. "How would you know what life is like at Yale? "Yale is like Columbia....and urban campus......not that YOU would know that.....oh ....wait..you claim you've all over the place....lol......sorry......is that a form of "trolling?" lol |
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Re: My Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 26 18:28:56 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jan 26 17:58:39 2015. Best secks he ever had. |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:30:25 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jan 26 17:58:39 2015. "Maybe he thought that you meant 'jail'."Why? do you miss your "brothers?" |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:32:24 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 18:17:10 2015. Yea.....Train Dude's posts are rather COMICAL....that's their true worth. |
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Re: My Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:33:58 2015, in response to Re: My Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 26 18:28:56 2015. "seck?" are trying to tell us something "underground" in "your world?" |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 18:37:03 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:26:19 2015. IAWTP !!!! |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 18:38:03 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:30:25 2015. LOL! |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by cortelyounext on Mon Jan 26 18:48:55 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 18:38:03 2015. Here |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:58:14 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 18:37:03 2015. thanks :) |
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Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 19:36:51 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 17:18:09 2015. |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 19:39:52 2015, in response to Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 19:36:51 2015. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-26/black-nyt-writer-criticizes-yale-police-as-son-held-at-gunpoint.htmlAs Police Stop Blacks on Campus, Parents' Nightmare Is 'My Son at the Wrong End of a Gun' By John Lauerman and Chris Staiti Jan 26, 2015 6:48 PM ET Anger over blacks’ treatment by police took on a campus focus after a New York Times columnist said Yale University police held his son at gunpoint after mistaking him for a black burglary suspect. Charles M. Blow said in an op-ed piece in the Times that his son, a third-year student at the Ivy League school in New Haven, Connecticut, was stopped Saturday evening after leaving the campus library. The officer brandished a gun and made Blow’s son lie on the ground before asking for identification or telling him why he was being detained, Blow wrote. “When I spoke to my son, he was shaken up. I, however, was fuming,” Blow wrote Monday. Elite colleges have been the scene of allegations of overzealous police actions in incidents involving race. Some black students and professors say interactions with law enforcement can be humiliating and frightening. Police say they are trying to make sure campuses remain safe. The dean of Yale’s undergraduate college and the campus police chief apologized for the incident, Blow said. Yale said it will conduct an internal review. The campus police officer, who is also black, stopped Blow’s son because his clothing matched the description of the suspect, the school said. City and campus police are more likely to see blacks as dangerous until proven otherwise, said Kiese Laymon, an associate professor of English at Vassar College who wrote a column last year for the Gawker website about his experiences being stopped by law enforcement. ‘Keeps Happening’ “It keeps happening and I don’t know what’s going to stop it unless the nation changes and the institutions in the nation change,” said Laymon, who has also detailed his experiences in “How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America,” a collection of essays. “As much as it’s happening on campuses, it’s happening even more outside college campuses.” Laymon said he recently served on a Vassar committee on inclusion on campus. The school, in Poughkeepsie, New York, is adding staff and training to ensure that all students feel welcome, said Jonathan Chenette, dean of the faculty. Vassar is working to “make sure that the wonderful, talented, diverse students we’ve brought here feel included, challenged, rewarded and fully members of a community that values what they bring to us,” he said in a telephone interview Monday. Campus law enforcement officials have been leaders in forging bonds with their communities, and the vast majority of their interactions with students and faculty are peaceful, said David Perry, president of the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators, based in West Hartford, Connecticut. Officials work hard to avoid false accusations while trying to identify suspects, he said in a telephone interview. Officers’ Job “The intent of the law enforcement official is to find that bad person who’s doing something and to stop them from doing it,” said Perry, who is also Chief of Police at Florida State University in Tallahassee. “It’s a job that we have to do, and it doesn’t always go perfectly.” In 2009, Harvard University professor Henry Louis “Skip” Gates Jr. was arrested on suspicion of forcing his way into a house that turned out to be his own home. The episode sparked a national debate that led President Barack Obama to invite Gates and the arresting officer to the White House for a beer. Blacks and Latinos are more likely to be subject to traffic and pedestrian stops by police than are whites, according to the American Civil Liberties Union. Arrests leading to the killing of black men have led to protests in Ferguson, Missouri; New York City; and across the country. The officer’s use of a gun while detaining the student requires review, Yale President Peter Salovey said today in a joint statement by College Dean Jonathan Holloway and Yale Police Chief Ronnell Higgins. The incident was not a “replay” of tragedies in Ferguson and Staten Island, they said. “The officer, who himself is African American, was responding to a specific description relayed by individuals who had reported a crime in progress,” they said in the statement. Yale Incident At Yale, campus police responded to an emergency call at a dormitory after students reported a man entering rooms pretending to look for someone, a ruse for past burglaries on campus, Yale said in a statement. Students described the suspect as a tall, black, college-aged man wearing a black jacket and a red and white hat. “During the efforts to locate and detain the suspect, a Yale College student, who closely matched the description of the suspect, was briefly detained and released by Yale police,” spokesman Tom Conroy said in the statement. The real suspect was later caught and will be charged with felony burglary, he said. Blow said he wouldn’t have had a problem with his son being questioned “appropriately,” if he matched the description of the suspect. He said the officer should have first asked for his son’s identification and approached him without a drawn gun. “This is the scenario I have always dreaded: my son at the wrong end of a gun barrel, face down on the concrete,” Blow wrote. “I had always dreaded the moment that we would share stories about encounters with the police in which our lives hung in the balance.” |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 21:08:09 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by cortelyounext on Mon Jan 26 18:48:55 2015. YAY !!! |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 21:08:37 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:58:14 2015. YW |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 21:39:25 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 18:26:19 2015. How do you know he would have been? Are you currently attending Yale? Do you have a copy of the campus police procedures manual? |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 21:41:47 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 21:08:09 2015. 
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 21:43:20 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 19:39:52 2015. I'm not saying you're incorrect, Streetie. What I am asking is how do you know white students in the same scenario are treated differently? |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 21:52:50 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 19:39:52 2015. IAWTP |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 21:59:48 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 21:39:25 2015. "How do you know he would have been? Are you currently attending Yale? Do you have a copy of the campus police procedures manual?"Do you really live in a bubble in TEXAS? eh? one does not have to attend Yale to know how people of color are wrongly treated in America.....even in 2015. I don't many White students being treated like garbage by the police......DO YOU DAVE? what do you really know? "Do you have a copy of the campus police procedures manual?" DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE? get some! |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:01:31 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 21:41:47 2015. Is that a picture of a failed college course you took way back when ? |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:03:08 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 21:43:20 2015. "What I am asking is how do you know white students in the same scenario are treated differently?"They are given the BENEFIT of the DOUBT....DAVEY.......you so doubt the White privilege issue.....don't you.....admit it. |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:04:17 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Jan 26 21:52:50 2015. Davey will never get it.....he is in such denial of America really is.......and that's sad.....from a college-educated man that he is.....lol |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 22:06:44 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:03:08 2015. Without evidence of how white students in the same situation are treated by campus police, you're talking out of your ass. |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:13:49 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 22:06:44 2015. "Without evidence of how white students in the same situation are treated by campus police, you're talking out of your ass."Why are you such a CLOSET RACIST? I presented the facts.....from the Black prespective......and for the White prespective...there is none....why? cause they are not treated like criminals. Look at the 11 year-old killed in a public park for carrying a toy gun.......and you say.....WHAT EVIDENCE is there? you mock the death of every young man of color by being in denial of police harassment of minorities..... |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by The silence on Mon Jan 26 22:14:01 2015, in response to Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 19:36:51 2015. You, the race baiter, are in no position to judge anyone.This is just another case of the failure of the non-logic people like you operate on. The student matched the description of a burglary suspect. How should a cop handel someone who may have just commuted a violent crime? Buy him cookies? "But if he says he didn't..." People lie. How if the officer supposed to know right away? The student could be armed. The student could have attacked. The student could have been the guilty party. You are operating fully on hindsight. No sudden movements, did exactly as he was told, and he got to go home. He didn't do anything stupid like charge the officer or get confrontational. The gunpoint is simply incentive. |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:19:26 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by The silence on Mon Jan 26 22:14:01 2015. "You, the race baiter, are in no position to judge anyone."WHY NOT COME OUT OF THE RACIST CLOSET....YOU'RE ANOTHER ONE THAT IS IN DENIAL OF HOW MINORITIES ARE TREATED IN AMERICA! WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT POSITION I SHOULD BE TAKING ON SUBCHAT! The man was unarmed....the campus at Yale is a closed campus......you need ID to get in there. Why make false statements? he was there already for 3 years....why would he end his future with a crime? are you that DUMB? YES! |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jan 26 22:25:43 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:19:26 2015. Who are you to tell Dave what position he should take? |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:26:51 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jan 26 22:25:43 2015. "Who are you to tell Dave what position he should take?"Same way he tells others. |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jan 26 22:43:22 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:26:51 2015. And you have a problem when he does that to you so why do you think it is appropriate to do the same? |
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Re: My Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 27 01:35:19 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 21:59:48 2015. Since you didn't answer honestly, you look like an idiot. Again.BTW, only the Irish are allowed to answer questions with questions. |
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Re: My Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 27 01:36:07 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:01:31 2015. LOL! No, dummy. That's Pavlov's experiment. Look it up. |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue Jan 27 02:03:43 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:03:08 2015. IAWTP !!davey from texassss |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue Jan 27 04:11:34 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by Dave on Mon Jan 26 21:41:47 2015. FUCK YOU |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue Jan 27 04:11:54 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:01:31 2015. LOL !!IAWTP |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue Jan 27 04:45:30 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:13:49 2015. IAWTP !!thats telling dave from texassss |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue Jan 27 04:45:57 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:04:17 2015. IAWTP |
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Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Tue Jan 27 04:47:28 2015, in response to Re: MY Life at Yale as a Black student in 2015, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 21:59:48 2015. IAWTPan original from dave in texasss |
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Re: Really Dave?????? |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Jan 27 07:55:30 2015, in response to Re: Really Dave??????, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 26 22:13:49 2015. Nice deflection but that has nothing to do with Yale. Have you reviewed arrest and/or detainment records at Yale categorized by race? If not then you're talking out of your ass - again - using anecdotal events to support your position.Get back to us when you have some hard facts to support your position, okay? Until then you're just flapping yer gums. |
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