On Republicans, Putin and Treason

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On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014 fiogf49gjkf0d These are the same people who thought that Bush and the Neocons were strategic geniuses ------------------- Russian economy faces freefall conditions By Steve Benen - MSNBC A friend of mine recently asked why I’m so hung up on Russian President Vladimir Putin and the adulation he’s received from Republicans in the U.S. I think it comes down to two things. The first is that GOP gushing over the Russian autocrat has always struck me as a historical oddity: I simply can’t think of a comparable moment in modern American history in which the United States butted heads with a major foreign rival, and prominent figures from an American political party started publicly praising the other country’s leader. It served as a reminder that Republican contempt for President Obama has reached levels that defy simple, patriotic norms. The second, however, is more basic: a variety of conservative Americans not only expressed their admiration for Putin, they also saw him as a strategic mastermind, guiding Russia towards power and greatness, and demonstrating the kind of leadership needed in the United States. And so, as we watch conditions in Russia deteriorate to alarming lows, I continue to believe it’s incumbent on Republicans to offer an explanation for how spectacularly wrong they were. A funny thing happened on the way to Vladimir Putin running strategic laps around the West. Russia’s economy imploded. The latest news is that Russia’s central bank raised interest rates from 10.5 to 17 percent at an emergency 1 a.m. meeting in an attempt to stop the ruble, which is down 50 percent on the year against the dollar, from falling any further. It’s a desperate move to save Russia’s currency that comes at the cost of sacrificing Russia’s economy. So even if it “works,” things are about to get a lot worse. In a not-so-subtle shot at Putin’s American fans, Matt O’Brien’s terrific report concluded, “Putin might be playing chess while we play checkers, but only if we lend him the money for the set.” Russia suddenly has nothing but awful options. Falling oil prices has crushed Russian currency, which leads to brutal inflation. In response, Russia’s central bank – in a panicked, middle-of-the-night move – created much higher interest rates, which will crush Russian economic growth. All the while, Putin’s military misadventures have isolated the country economically and diplomatically, leaving Russia with sanctions that make matters even worse. All of which brings us back to the fact that much of America’s right was absolutely convinced of Putin’s genius. In December 2013, failed Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney hailed the Russian autocrat, telling NBC News, “I think Putin has outperformed our president time and time again on the world stage.” In February 2014, Republican presidential hopeful Ben Carson wrote about how impressed he is with Russia’s direction under Putin’s leadership. “Russians seem to be gaining prestige and influence throughout the world as we are losing ours,” Carson said. In March 2014, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers (R-Mich.) gushed on national television, “Putin is playing chess and I think we are playing marbles, and I don’t think it’s even close. They’ve been running circles around us.” Also in March 2014, former NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R) said of Putin, “That’s what you call a leader.” The same month, former half-term Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R) added, “People are looking at Putin as one who wrestles bears and drills for oil. They look at our president as one who wears mom jeans and equivocates and bloviates.” In August 2014, Fox News’ Kimberly Guilfoyle said she wanted Putin to temporarily serve as “head of the United States” so the campaign against ISIS would be “done right.” So many Republicans have spent the last year fawning over the Russian president largely because Putin satisfies their shallow understanding of leadership – he seems tough. Putin wants to come across as strong and intimidating, and it’s this persona that the right apparently finds so compelling. What conservatives tend to miss is the fact that the Russian president’s confidence masks incompetence. Republicans may gush over an autocrat who walks with a tough-guy strut, but there’s a difference between those who act tough and those who are tough. Every move Putin has made this year has produced disastrous results for his country. So what do his American admirers have to say for themselves?
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 11:30:44 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Thanks, Saudi Arabia, for ruining the Russian Economy for their own reasons.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 11:32:09 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:30:44 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d And who are you accusing of treason. The word is mentioned in the article. I love how leftists love to throw that word around when they attack anyone on the right who uses it in any context.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 11:32:47 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:32:09 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d "ISN'T mentioned in the article."
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 11:45:22 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d What conservatives tend to miss is the fact that the Russian president’s confidence masks incompetence. ... Every move Putin has made this year has produced disastrous results for his country Put that way it seems pretty obvious why the right wingers adore him so: that may as well be a carbon copy of Dubya's presidential career. My only question is whether the righties are hoping to vicariously live out through Russia what Dubya would have been able to do with autocratic powers to "save" his country, or if they're just attracted to style-over-substance politicians like a moth to a flame. Given their record with Reagan, Schwarzenegger, Palin, Ryan, and even McCarthy I'm inclined to believe its the latter.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 11:49:11 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:32:09 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d The word treason certainly does not apply to any of the cited statements by Americans with respect to Russia. One can perfectly well praise Putin (even if it was stupid) without being treasonous. I see lots of people here accusing Obama of treason.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 11:50:02 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 11:45:22 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d There is no comparison between W and Putin. Cheney maybe, but he wasn't President.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 12:07:01 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 11:49:11 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I haven't.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 12:19:04 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:30:44 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Can you blame them? In one fell swoop the Saudis can make their competitors in North America very uncomfortable, injure the Russian producers, deny funds to the terrorist army that espouses an anti-Saudi form of Islam, and claim they're doing all of it to further the foreign policy goals of their western customers. It's essentially win, win, win for the Saudis. I can't say I have much sympathy for Russia or Putin. If he was such a strategic genius he should have recognized the simple fact that his largely single resource economy was susceptible to the Saudis' machinations should he embark upon some foolish foreign misadventures.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 12:21:01 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 12:07:01 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I haven't accused anyone of treason either. I think the term should be used exceedingly sparingly.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 12:26:54 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 12:19:04 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d While for a while Russia was a very rich banana republic. But don't count them out just yet. Also, I don't believe we should prop up countries that mean us ill at the gas pump, but if the Russian economy does collapse, some pretty scary things can happen there and I don't expect one of them to be renewed democracy.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 12:28:40 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 11:50:02 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d So he's the figurehead and puppet master rolled up into one package. Doesn't diminish his failure despite the constant adulation from the American right.
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Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed Dec 17 12:34:05 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Steve Benen, whose history includes Salon, the Manchester Guardian, Huffy Post, never mind the anti-American AUSCS.
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Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 12:41:17 2014, in response to Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 17 12:34:05 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Again, you've long ago ceded any right to kill the messenger. Debate his points on their merits or STFU.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 13:11:24 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 12:26:54 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d It's not like we can keep holding their hand, desperately hoping democracy will be declared if we wish harder while their latest autocratic "president" thumbs his nose at us just because they have nukes. They're going to get their nose bent, particularly if they start trying to annex neighboring countries and shooting down civilian airliners. Why should we concern ourselves with the consequences of an expansionist foreign policy on the internal politics of that sovereign nation?
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by Dan Lawrence* on Wed Dec 17 13:20:09 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d There is a good reason we can't. Republicans and Democrats don't where signs saying it.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 13:11:24 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Why should we concern ourselves with the consequences of an expansionist foreign policy on the internal politics of that sovereign nation? I would be somewhat concerned of Putin manufacturing a military crisis to distract Russia's attention from its economy.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed Dec 17 13:22:16 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Dec 17 13:20:09 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d There is a good reason we can't what? WTF are you talking about?
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by terRAPIN station* on Wed Dec 17 13:31:56 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 17 13:22:16 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d IAWTP
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 14:06:05 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d And I'm also concerned that with other nationalist and especially some right-wing movements, that Putin may not be the only game in town. The results of instability in Russia are not wholly predictable. And remember potential (and real) Islamists on the southern border. And no, turmoil or a power vacuum in Russia may not be a strictly internal issue. And they have nuclear weapons. The Soviet Union was a genuine threat during the Cold War, but MAD worked because both the Soviets and the U.S. knew the probable result of a nervous trigger finger. We have lots of people in the world now how could care less, and fear of retaliation isn't even on their radar.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 14:07:12 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 17 13:22:16 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d He means "wear." Thank you for not using WADL. It's become such a cliche.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed Dec 17 14:20:06 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:07:12 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I know. But my question still stands.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by terRAPIN station* on Wed Dec 17 14:20:44 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:07:12 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Why would he have said WADL? We only say WADL when Dan Lawrence is wrong again.
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Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason
Posted by Fred G* on Wed Dec 17 14:32:10 2014, in response to Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 17 12:34:05 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Sez Olog-hai, who's history includes 10 years of mental instability at OTChat :) Your pal, Fred
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by ClearAspect* on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 12:19:04 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d They arent hurting North American production, lol
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by Fred G* on Wed Dec 17 14:47:15 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by ClearAspect on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Yes they are. Your pal, Fred
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 16:22:50 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Putin launched his South Ossetia war in 2008 with oil prices at an all time high and the Russian economy flush with cash. He carried on the Chechen offensive throughout the 2000s with the economy riding high. Now that oil prices are declining and the Russian economy is suffering we're worried about the possibility of Putin starting another war. Seems to me his history suggests he's going to start a war regardless of his country's economic strength.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 16:25:38 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:22:50 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I'm worried about something with a lot more impact on the west than invading South Ossetia.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 16:38:15 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 16:25:38 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d But are they capable of undertaking anything bigger than the South Ossetia war? Their population is in decline, and while they have a few cutting edge units, most of their military strength is made up of Cold War relics. They haven't had any more luck than the US as an occupying force in Afghanistan, Chechnya, or Ukraine. They can threaten with nuclear weapons, but against any of their European aligned neighbors their bluff will be called immediately.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 17:00:25 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:38:15 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Your basic assumption is that Putin remains sane.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 17:04:14 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by ClearAspect on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d What Fred said. Between July/August and September production declined by around 3000 barrels per day. The upcoming EIA production summaries should be very interesting.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 17:16:59 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:04:14 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Not convincing. September was still way higher than June. Which is not to say that a much bigger drop hasn't happened since.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 17:19:42 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:00:25 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d No, I'm assuming that Russia, as a kleptocratic oligopoly masquerading as an illiberal democracy, has a small number of powerful financial interests who may find their visions of expanding Rodina pale a bit when it impacts their bottom line. War is bad for business and Putin may find himself on the way out if he insists on exacerbating economic problems in a bid to consolidate his political control.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Wed Dec 17 17:22:41 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:19:42 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Does Putin control the oligarchs or do the oligarchs control Putin? I don't know the answer.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Dec 17 17:27:55 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:22:41 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d The other question is whether either side wants to find out.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 17:36:54 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:22:41 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Seems most likely it's a symbiotic relationship with neither the government or the business leaders necessarily ordering the other about. But if the oligarchs aren't getting the money they feel is due, then they could likely orchestrate an effort to replace Putin. Whether that would take the form of an actual election, a coup, an assassination attempt, or something else and what it'll result in is the 3,919,856 Ruble question. I'm not saying it won't end badly, but there's the possibility that things may improve or at least stay close to the status quo.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by LuchAAA* on Wed Dec 17 17:36:56 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by ClearAspect on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d +1
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 17:41:33 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:06:05 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Isn't that supposed to be one of the benefits of a capitalist society? The business interests in the country serve as a moderating influence, because they're not going to make a whole lot of money if the country declines into chaos. But kudos on slipping the the islamofascist pantypiddling into your cold warrior fearmongering.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Wed Dec 17 17:49:33 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:16:59 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d But in May we were told US oil production would grow forever and ever without bound. Then it didn't. Somehow production of frack gas and shale oil never seems to quite measure up to initial projections, but we keep hearing how they're going to supply the country's energy needs. It simply goes to prove we cannot achieve energy independence at the wellhead.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Dec 17 20:07:20 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:41:33 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Is your last sentence a tribute to Spiro Agnew's rhetorical flourishes?
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Thu Dec 18 01:54:20 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 20:07:20 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Not enough Safiresque alliteration.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SMAZ* on Thu Dec 18 05:03:28 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:22:50 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Seems to me his history suggests he's going to start a war regardless of his country's economic strength. Rule of Warfare #1: servicemembers and retirees not getting paid = no war
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SMAZ* on Thu Dec 18 05:27:12 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:19:42 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I hope Russia can hang in there at least until the 2018 World Cup. Putin is up for election a few months before it starts. We can have an idea of the feel on the ground during the 2017 Confederations Cup. The chaos that erupted in Brazilian streets during the 2013 CC gave the world a good idea of the political situation there because of that.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SMAZ* on Thu Dec 18 05:31:08 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:36:54 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Russia's oligharchs have already lost half or more of their nominal wealth in the past few months. The clock is already ticking.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by AlM* on Thu Dec 18 09:11:49 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Thu Dec 18 05:03:28 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d You only have to pay the people who maintain the nukes. :( I'm not really that pessimistic, but I do have my concerns.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by WillD* on Thu Dec 18 10:09:09 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 20:07:20 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I wasn't the one who inserted islamophobia into his anachronistic Cold War fears, so you tell me.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by SLRT* on Thu Dec 18 11:33:53 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 18 01:54:20 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I noted.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by Fred G* on Thu Dec 18 11:37:52 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Thu Dec 18 05:31:08 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d They're unhappy with that arrogant ass your pal, Fred
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by kew gardens teleport* on Sun Dec 21 12:40:23 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:49:33 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d Somehow production of frack gas and shale oil never seems to quite measure up to initial projections, but we keep hearing how they're going to supply the country's energy needs. Might just be because the Saudis are flooding the market at the moment. Which is how we got onto this tangent.
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason
Posted by kew gardens teleport* on Sun Dec 21 12:42:19 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014.* fiogf49gjkf0d I still think we should play him at his own game: manufacture a revolt in Kaliningrad, which coincidentally then decides to unite with Lithuania.
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