On Republicans, Putin and Treason (1247919) | |
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Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:30:44 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014. Thanks, Saudi Arabia, for ruining the Russian Economy for their own reasons. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:32:09 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:30:44 2014. And who are you accusing of treason. The word is mentioned in the article.I love how leftists love to throw that word around when they attack anyone on the right who uses it in any context. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:32:47 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:32:09 2014. "ISN'T mentioned in the article." |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 11:45:22 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014. What conservatives tend to miss is the fact that the Russian president’s confidence masks incompetence. ... Every move Putin has made this year has produced disastrous results for his countryPut that way it seems pretty obvious why the right wingers adore him so: that may as well be a carbon copy of Dubya's presidential career. My only question is whether the righties are hoping to vicariously live out through Russia what Dubya would have been able to do with autocratic powers to "save" his country, or if they're just attracted to style-over-substance politicians like a moth to a flame. Given their record with Reagan, Schwarzenegger, Palin, Ryan, and even McCarthy I'm inclined to believe its the latter. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 11:49:11 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:32:09 2014. The word treason certainly does not apply to any of the cited statements by Americans with respect to Russia. One can perfectly well praise Putin (even if it was stupid) without being treasonous.I see lots of people here accusing Obama of treason. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 11:50:02 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 11:45:22 2014. There is no comparison between W and Putin.Cheney maybe, but he wasn't President. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 12:07:01 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 11:49:11 2014. I haven't. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 12:19:04 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 11:30:44 2014. Can you blame them? In one fell swoop the Saudis can make their competitors in North America very uncomfortable, injure the Russian producers, deny funds to the terrorist army that espouses an anti-Saudi form of Islam, and claim they're doing all of it to further the foreign policy goals of their western customers. It's essentially win, win, win for the Saudis.I can't say I have much sympathy for Russia or Putin. If he was such a strategic genius he should have recognized the simple fact that his largely single resource economy was susceptible to the Saudis' machinations should he embark upon some foolish foreign misadventures. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 12:21:01 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 12:07:01 2014. I haven't accused anyone of treason either. I think the term should be used exceedingly sparingly. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 12:26:54 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 12:19:04 2014. While for a while Russia was a very rich banana republic. But don't count them out just yet.Also, I don't believe we should prop up countries that mean us ill at the gas pump, but if the Russian economy does collapse, some pretty scary things can happen there and I don't expect one of them to be renewed democracy. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 12:28:40 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 11:50:02 2014. So he's the figurehead and puppet master rolled up into one package. Doesn't diminish his failure despite the constant adulation from the American right. |
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Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 17 12:34:05 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014. Steve Benen, whose history includes Salon, the Manchester Guardian, Huffy Post, never mind the anti-American AUSCS. |
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Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 12:41:17 2014, in response to Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 17 12:34:05 2014. Again, you've long ago ceded any right to kill the messenger. Debate his points on their merits or STFU. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 13:11:24 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 12:26:54 2014. It's not like we can keep holding their hand, desperately hoping democracy will be declared if we wish harder while their latest autocratic "president" thumbs his nose at us just because they have nukes. They're going to get their nose bent, particularly if they start trying to annex neighboring countries and shooting down civilian airliners. Why should we concern ourselves with the consequences of an expansionist foreign policy on the internal politics of that sovereign nation? |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Dec 17 13:20:09 2014, in response to On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 17 08:15:05 2014. There is a good reason we can't. Republicans and Democrats don't where signs saying it. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 13:11:24 2014. Why should we concern ourselves with the consequences of an expansionist foreign policy on the internal politics of that sovereign nation?I would be somewhat concerned of Putin manufacturing a military crisis to distract Russia's attention from its economy. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 17 13:22:16 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by Dan Lawrence on Wed Dec 17 13:20:09 2014. There is a good reason we can't what? WTF are you talking about? |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Dec 17 13:31:56 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 17 13:22:16 2014. IAWTP |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:06:05 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014. And I'm also concerned that with other nationalist and especially some right-wing movements, that Putin may not be the only game in town. The results of instability in Russia are not wholly predictable. And remember potential (and real) Islamists on the southern border.And no, turmoil or a power vacuum in Russia may not be a strictly internal issue. And they have nuclear weapons. The Soviet Union was a genuine threat during the Cold War, but MAD worked because both the Soviets and the U.S. knew the probable result of a nervous trigger finger. We have lots of people in the world now how could care less, and fear of retaliation isn't even on their radar. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:07:12 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 17 13:22:16 2014. He means "wear."Thank you for not using WADL. It's become such a cliche. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 17 14:20:06 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:07:12 2014. I know. But my question still stands. |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Dec 17 14:20:44 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:07:12 2014. Why would he have said WADL? We only say WADL when Dan Lawrence is wrong again. |
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Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 17 14:32:10 2014, in response to Re: On MSDNC, Putin and Treason, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 17 12:34:05 2014. Sez Olog-hai, who's history includes 10 years of mental instability at OTChat :)Your pal, Fred |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 12:19:04 2014. They arent hurting North American production, lol |
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Posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 17 14:47:15 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by ClearAspect on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014. Yes they are.Your pal, Fred |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:22:50 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014. Putin launched his South Ossetia war in 2008 with oil prices at an all time high and the Russian economy flush with cash. He carried on the Chechen offensive throughout the 2000s with the economy riding high. Now that oil prices are declining and the Russian economy is suffering we're worried about the possibility of Putin starting another war. Seems to me his history suggests he's going to start a war regardless of his country's economic strength. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 16:25:38 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:22:50 2014. I'm worried about something with a lot more impact on the west than invading South Ossetia. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:38:15 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 16:25:38 2014. But are they capable of undertaking anything bigger than the South Ossetia war? Their population is in decline, and while they have a few cutting edge units, most of their military strength is made up of Cold War relics. They haven't had any more luck than the US as an occupying force in Afghanistan, Chechnya, or Ukraine. They can threaten with nuclear weapons, but against any of their European aligned neighbors their bluff will be called immediately. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:00:25 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:38:15 2014. Your basic assumption is that Putin remains sane. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:04:14 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by ClearAspect on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014. What Fred said. Between July/August and September production declined by around 3000 barrels per day. The upcoming EIA production summaries should be very interesting. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:16:59 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:04:14 2014. Not convincing. September was still way higher than June.Which is not to say that a much bigger drop hasn't happened since. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:19:42 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:00:25 2014. No, I'm assuming that Russia, as a kleptocratic oligopoly masquerading as an illiberal democracy, has a small number of powerful financial interests who may find their visions of expanding Rodina pale a bit when it impacts their bottom line. War is bad for business and Putin may find himself on the way out if he insists on exacerbating economic problems in a bid to consolidate his political control. |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:22:41 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:19:42 2014. Does Putin control the oligarchs or do the oligarchs control Putin? I don't know the answer. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Dec 17 17:27:55 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:22:41 2014. The other question is whether either side wants to find out. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:36:54 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:22:41 2014. Seems most likely it's a symbiotic relationship with neither the government or the business leaders necessarily ordering the other about. But if the oligarchs aren't getting the money they feel is due, then they could likely orchestrate an effort to replace Putin. Whether that would take the form of an actual election, a coup, an assassination attempt, or something else and what it'll result in is the 3,919,856 Ruble question. I'm not saying it won't end badly, but there's the possibility that things may improve or at least stay close to the status quo. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Dec 17 17:36:56 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by ClearAspect on Wed Dec 17 14:34:55 2014. +1 |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:41:33 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 14:06:05 2014. Isn't that supposed to be one of the benefits of a capitalist society? The business interests in the country serve as a moderating influence, because they're not going to make a whole lot of money if the country declines into chaos.But kudos on slipping the the islamofascist pantypiddling into your cold warrior fearmongering. |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:49:33 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 17:16:59 2014. But in May we were told US oil production would grow forever and ever without bound. Then it didn't. Somehow production of frack gas and shale oil never seems to quite measure up to initial projections, but we keep hearing how they're going to supply the country's energy needs.It simply goes to prove we cannot achieve energy independence at the wellhead. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 20:07:20 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:41:33 2014. Is your last sentence a tribute to Spiro Agnew's rhetorical flourishes? |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 18 01:54:20 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 20:07:20 2014. Not enough Safiresque alliteration. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Dec 18 05:03:28 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 16:22:50 2014. Seems to me his history suggests he's going to start a war regardless of his country's economic strength.Rule of Warfare #1: servicemembers and retirees not getting paid = no war |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Dec 18 05:27:12 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:19:42 2014. I hope Russia can hang in there at least until the 2018 World Cup.Putin is up for election a few months before it starts. We can have an idea of the feel on the ground during the 2017 Confederations Cup. The chaos that erupted in Brazilian streets during the 2013 CC gave the world a good idea of the political situation there because of that. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Dec 18 05:31:08 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:36:54 2014. Russia's oligharchs have already lost half or more of their nominal wealth in the past few months.The clock is already ticking. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 18 09:11:49 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Thu Dec 18 05:03:28 2014. You only have to pay the people who maintain the nukes. :(I'm not really that pessimistic, but I do have my concerns. |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Dec 18 10:09:09 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SLRT on Wed Dec 17 20:07:20 2014. I wasn't the one who inserted islamophobia into his anachronistic Cold War fears, so you tell me. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 18 11:33:53 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 18 01:54:20 2014. I noted. |
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Posted by Fred G on Thu Dec 18 11:37:52 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by SMAZ on Thu Dec 18 05:31:08 2014. They're unhappy with that arrogant assyour pal, Fred |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 21 12:40:23 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by WillD on Wed Dec 17 17:49:33 2014. Somehow production of frack gas and shale oil never seems to quite measure up to initial projections, but we keep hearing how they're going to supply the country's energy needs.Might just be because the Saudis are flooding the market at the moment. Which is how we got onto this tangent. |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Sun Dec 21 12:42:19 2014, in response to Re: On Republicans, Putin and Treason, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 17 13:21:37 2014. I still think we should play him at his own game: manufacture a revolt in Kaliningrad, which coincidentally then decides to unite with Lithuania. |
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