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Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 22:32:15 2014 This ought to send quite a few people here in to a tizzy |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Oct 22 22:38:02 2014, in response to Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 22:32:15 2014. And your opinion is? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 22:39:58 2014, in response to Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 22:32:15 2014. I don't see what's so tizzying about it.Also, isn't Berlin the current capital of Germany? Did Germany ever have any other capital? It seems odd to constantly refer to it as "the former Nazi capital." Frankly, I don't see how the Nazis are even relevant to the economic and social factors driving immigration of people who were born four decades after they were defeated. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 22:40:35 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Oct 22 22:38:02 2014. That someone will find themselves tizzified at the news. Do you meet that criterion? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:11:57 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 22:39:58 2014. I'm not surprised you don't understand the relevant social factors here. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:17:50 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:11:57 2014. I do. You clearly don't. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:31:44 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:17:50 2014. Really? What are they in that case? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Oct 22 23:37:11 2014, in response to Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 22:32:15 2014. Still waiting for your opinion. Or would rather answer that lost cause Nilet? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:39:58 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Oct 22 23:37:11 2014. I have no problem with Israelis moving to Berlin if they think it is in their interest to do so. The Israeli government needs to take a serious look at how the economic realities of living there drive people to consider living elsewhere. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:40:27 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:31:44 2014. Affordability and greater opportunities, sense of community, returning to ancestral homeland, and exaggerated reports of antisemitism throughout other parts of Europe plus a bit of actual antisemitism that makes the exaggerations seem more plausible.Possibly greater freedom and moral objection to war as well. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:41:35 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Oct 22 23:37:11 2014. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you are the lost cause? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:42:31 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:40:27 2014. Are you saying Germany is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people?You seem to have overlooked the fact that Germany tried exterminating all of Europe's Jews not too long ago as a social consideration. And the reports of antisemitism throughout Europe are NOT over-exaggerated. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Oct 22 23:43:59 2014, in response to Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 22:32:15 2014. They're asking for trouble. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Oct 22 23:45:58 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:39:58 2014. Thank you for answering me. As usual we disagree. Have a good evening. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:48:01 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:42:31 2014. Are you saying Germany is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people?No, I'm saying Germany is quite likely the ancestral homeland of some of the people who immigrated there. You seem to have overlooked the fact that Germany tried exterminating all of Europe's Jews not too long ago as a social consideration. That's because it isn't one, as I already explained. I doubt anyone's decision to move to a country is likely to be affected by a genocide committed by a government which was overthrown and throughly repudiated decades before they were born. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:49:06 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:42:31 2014. Oh forgot a bit.And the reports of antisemitism throughout Europe are NOT over-exaggerated. If you think there's enough antisemitism in France that you have to flee the country, then either the report was over-exaggerated or you are overreacting. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:50:14 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:39:58 2014. The Israeli government needs to take a serious look at how the economic realities of living there drive people to consider living elsewhere.Social realities too. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by subfan on Thu Oct 23 06:25:10 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:50:14 2014. No, not really. In fact interviews with those who've moved to Germany have indicated that many are either planning or seriously considering moving back to Israel because of discomfort with German social realities and culture.But then again, what do facts have to do with it? subfan |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 23 06:55:09 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 22:39:58 2014. Bonn was the capital of West Germany. East Berlin, East Germany under the Soviets. So yes....Bonn. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Oct 23 07:39:30 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Oct 22 23:45:58 2014. Then what is your opinion? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 23 07:45:19 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:49:06 2014. If you think there's enough antisemitism in France that you have to flee the country, then either the report was over-exaggerated or you are overreacting.The majority of European Jews who survived, were those who "overreacted" to the Nazis by fleeing early. Those who are fleeing France today are the children of French Jews who wish they had "overreacted." |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Oct 23 07:55:17 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 23 07:45:19 2014. Pwn3d |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Oct 23 07:59:32 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by subfan on Thu Oct 23 06:25:10 2014. OWNED |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Oct 23 08:08:18 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Oct 23 07:55:17 2014. Verily. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Oct 23 08:18:03 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Oct 22 23:43:59 2014. Why? They're protected by legislation in a way the Turks and Africans living in Kreuzberg and Schönefeld are not. Those groups encounter relatively few difficulties with the native Germans, so why would Israelishe be any different? I'd argue Berlin is probably the most open minded German city and thus the place where immigrants are most likely to be welcomed. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Oct 23 08:34:09 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 23 07:45:19 2014. But there are huge differences between today's France and 1934 Germany. In particular, in 1934 Germany it was the government that was persecuting Jews. In today's France it is mostly the least influential members of society. Which is not to say that the least influential members of society can't harm you too.And if you are comparing today's France to pre-Hitler Germany, then I would suggest that leaving Germany before Hitler came to power would have been overreacting. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 23 09:44:11 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by AlM on Thu Oct 23 08:34:09 2014. Which is not to say that the least influential members of society can't harm you too.Democratically elected governments will follow the vox populi, if they wish to remain in office. Therefore, it's important to look at the number of antisemitic incidents, even though they are committed by the society's least influential. Antisemitic incidents have been rising in France and have progressed beyond graffiti. France also has a history of government tolerated antisemitism. It's not too difficult to imagine that the National Front may be included in a coalition government in the future. Their voting percentage has been increasing. I would suggest that leaving Germany before Hitler came to power would have been overreacting. Many who did not leave would disagree with your assessment. It's extremely difficult to leave a country, especially if one is prosperous and has an investment in that country. Many German Jews convinced themselves that Hitler was a passing phase and they could ride out the storm. My father's cousin expressed that view during a visit to the US in 1936. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 23 09:53:28 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WillD on Thu Oct 23 08:18:03 2014. Certainly more than comparing it to France as some do. The French are not very tolerable of anyone to begin with. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Oct 23 10:12:33 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 23 09:44:11 2014. It's extremely difficult to leave a country, especially if one is prosperous and has an investment in that country. Many German Jews convinced themselves that Hitler was a passing phase and they could ride out the storm. My father's cousin expressed that view during a visit to the US in 1936.I was referring to any time prior to January 30, 1933. I 100% agree that by 1936 (or even 1934) it was not overreacting to pack up and leave. I would also agree that if the National Front were to become part of the French government and if the slightest bit of suspicious legislation were passed, then leaving France would no longer have any flavor of "overreacting." But these events have not yet happened. I also agree that one might just want to leave now even without the slightest government approval of antisemitism. I'm just saying it's not like Germany in 1934. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by DANd124 on Thu Oct 23 10:31:18 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by AlM on Thu Oct 23 10:12:33 2014. I was referring to any time prior to January 30, 1933. I 100% agree that by 1936 (or even 1934) it was not overreacting to pack up and leave.People who want to leave also need to fin a country to take them in. It was much easier to enter the US in 1921 than it was in 1938; those the left early were able to enter the US. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Oct 23 10:39:36 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by mtk52983 on Thu Oct 23 07:39:30 2014. It's an insult to the memory of the 6 million people theit lost their lives in the Holocaust |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Oct 23 10:39:59 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:39:58 2014. It's an insult to the memory of the 6 million people theit lost their lives in the Holocaust |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 11:39:39 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Oct 23 10:39:36 2014. And if Europe is Judenrein, don't the Nazis win? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 11:48:13 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Nilet on Wed Oct 22 23:49:06 2014. The Rabbi of Toulouse and two of his three children, were they still alive today, might beg to differ. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 11:49:12 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 11:48:13 2014. Also, the tourists at the Jewish Museum of Belgium who are no longer alive might want to do the same if they had the chance. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Oct 23 12:06:25 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 11:49:12 2014. Those were terrible events, and specifically targeted at Jews, but note that in the same time period there have also been murders targeting specific people in the US because of their ethnicity as well.Not to diminish the possible future effects, at least based on the past few years the risk of being killed by a deliberate assualt based on one's Jewishness has been far less than the risk of being killed by a reckless motorist. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 12:31:26 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by AlM on Thu Oct 23 12:06:25 2014. note that in the same time period there have also been murders targeting specific people in the US because of their ethnicity as well.I don't deny this. the risk of being killed by a deliberate assualt based on one's Jewishness has been far less than the risk of being killed by a reckless motorist. In the US, anti-Semitism isn't the problem it is in Europe. But the fact is that anti-Semitism is getting worse in Europe and we know what happened last time... |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Oct 23 12:40:14 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 11:39:39 2014. The nazis wants all Jews off the face of the earth. And why did you capitalize nazi? |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 12:45:50 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Oct 23 12:40:14 2014. If my capitalization is all you have left to criticize in this thread (and it is an odd criticism, the rules of English grammar that you insist we all follow while posting here dictate that it should be capitalized), you might as well give up. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Oct 23 12:47:37 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Oct 23 12:45:50 2014. Like I've given up calling you names. It's a study in futility. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 23 15:33:35 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Oct 23 07:45:19 2014. C'est vrai. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Oct 23 15:43:30 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Oct 22 23:11:57 2014. Never mind the history. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 23 15:44:50 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Oct 23 06:55:09 2014. As the unification of Germany was achieved by West Germany annexing East Germany, Bonn was the single capital of unified Germany from unification until they got around to moving it to Berlin. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Oct 23 15:49:28 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by WillD on Thu Oct 23 08:18:03 2014. Oh, you are so naive. Legislation is nothing but paper, paper that can be torn up and destroyed. Protection provided by legislation only is very precarious indeed. In the United States, religion is protected by the very document upon which the entire government is based - the Constitution. Germany does not have any document that says that all men are created equal. Protection needs to be provided by an external document.The German Jews of the second half of the 19th century also thought they were living in a Golden Age. Germany was an enlightened country, with great advances in music, the arts and in philosophy. German Jews thought they were accepted on par with their Gentile counterparts. They grew prominent, rich and powerful and even scoffed at Jewish immigrants from Russia and Poland, called them "kis", since so many of the immigrants' names ended in "ki". The word "kis" evolved into "kikes". Jews fought on Germany's behalf during World War I. They were proud citizens, Germans first and Jews a distant second. All died. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Oct 23 15:51:00 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 23 09:53:28 2014. The French are a bunch of filthy, arrogant wishy-washy assholes.But they didn't start two world wars and they never engineered genocide. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Oct 23 16:20:32 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Oct 23 15:49:28 2014. Germany does not have any document that says that all men are created equal.Article I of the Grundgesetz für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland... |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 23 16:57:40 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Mitch45 on Thu Oct 23 15:51:00 2014. This is true, yet you are blaming people that had nothing to do with it. It's akin to "blaming all whites" for slavery. People alive today had nothing to do with it, nor did every ancestor have anything to do with it, in fact many FOUGHT it. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 23 16:58:04 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 23 15:44:50 2014. Correct. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 23 17:07:45 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 23 16:58:04 2014. Also Frankfurt-am-Main was the capital of both the Confederation of the Rhine and the German Confederation. The capital of the Holy Roman Empire varied.Berlin is the current capital of Germany due to its historic status as the capital of Brandenburg, then of Brandenburg-Prussia and then the Kingdom of Prussia. The King of Prussia became the Emperor of Germany as part of German unification in 1871, so Berlin became the capital of the German Empire. |
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Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Oct 23 18:35:52 2014, in response to Re: Waves of young Israelis find a home in the former Nazi capital, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 23 16:57:40 2014. Perhaps. But there is no denying that a culture of fascism and anti-Semitism remains, however slight, in Germany. That will never be legislated away. And not as many Germans fought Hitler as you would think. |
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